Reply to: Update on my IR35 investigation still going on two and a half years after it began.

[CloudWalker]

Government Contract ?

[psychocandy]

No I was not going in every day but was bought in to clear a backlog of 'certain' work over which I has control to either choose or refuse. Five of us were hired and worked away from other permanent employees; no paid holiday; no mutulaity of obligation; no sick pay; no staff canteen and I had the right to substitute another skilled worker to complete my work if I was unwell, etc.

QDOS/PCG represent you in this?

[Martley]

If I may ask: where you doing anything to provoke their interest?

I mean, are you just a contractor going in every day, buying a sandwich on expenses- or were you getting paid holidays, expensing flights to the Caribbean, managing teams, etc?

I believe this distinction is important

No I was not going in every day but was bought in to clear a backlog of 'certain' work over which I has control to either choose or refuse. Five of us were hired and worked away from other permanent employees; no paid holiday; no mutulaity of obligation; no sick pay; no staff canteen and I had the right to substitute another skilled worker to complete my work if I was unwell, etc.

[Zero Liability]

If I may ask: where you doing anything to provoke their interest?

I mean, are you just a contractor going in every day, buying a sandwich on expenses- or were you getting paid holidays, expensing flights to the Caribbean, managing teams, etc?

I believe this distinction is important

Would also be interesting to find out the day rate billed as high income can be a risk factor from what I've read.

[psychocandy]

OP - did you have any representation during this?

IPSE/QDOS etc?

[mudskipper]

Nautically trying to ask - were you doing normal everyday contract stuff, or were you taking the piss in some easily reportable way?

OP is a social worker IIRC.

[eek]

I take it you aren't a pcg / IPSE member?

[PerfectStorm]

Interesting.. More explanation?

Nautically trying to ask - were you doing normal everyday contract stuff, or were you taking the piss in some easily reportable way?

[northernladuk]

If I may ask: where you doing anything to provoke their interest?

I mean, are you just a contractor going in every day, buying a sandwich on expenses- or were you getting paid holidays, expensing flights to the Caribbean, managing teams, etc?

I believe this distinction is important

Interesting.. More explanation?

[WordIsBond]

If I may ask: where you doing anything to provoke their interest?

I mean, are you just a contractor going in every day, buying a sandwich on expenses- or were you getting paid holidays, expensing flights to the Caribbean, managing teams, etc?

I believe this distinction is important

Perhaps read his other threads, like he suggested. Gives a lot of the background.

[PerfectStorm]

If I may ask: where you doing anything to provoke their interest?

I mean, are you just a contractor going in every day, buying a sandwich on expenses- or were you getting paid holidays, expensing flights to the Caribbean, managing teams, etc?

I believe this distinction is important

[Martley]

What point(s) would you say have been key to demonstrating that you are outside of IR35?

Do you have any idea why they picked on you in the first place?

Do you have any idea when they are going to close the investigation?

The main issues have been of control and personal service but they have asked so many questions over so many months; all broken down into sub parts.

I do know that they have gone through a period of investigating many contractors in the public sector, although how they identified us we still don't know. They just have had some tool or other information that made us more vulnerable.

When will they actually close it down? Who knows but I do think it's coming to an end sometime fairly soon. My end client had a telephone conference call with them and then they sent him a transcript to sign. But he does know what he's doing so this definitely stumped them. But I do not have faith in anything the hmrc do. Besides being foolish to leave long gaps between each letter and demand they used bullying tactics to try to get information from people. Bring it on for the final showdown I say.

[JB3000]

Firstly please see my other threads for the background to my situation. It's been over a year since I last posted so I've decided to update you. Having been going through this for over two and a half years I can now say that I've moved beyond the initial horror of it, and can reflect on how much I've learned. Although I wouldn't want anyone else to go through it I would say that I've become wise to the underhand and nasty tricks that HMRC play, and I have no hesitation in saying that they are the most disingenuous bullies I have encountered. The stunts and tricks they pull no longer surprise me. But they are like a dog with a bone and keep going back again and again in the hope that they will uncover something to get you into IR35.

After finally saying they deemed me to be inside IR35 I managed to find my end client whom hired me for the contract and he went into discussion with HMRC around the usuals; personal service, control, MOO and right of substitution. I now see it clearly that I was never inside IR35 but still they keep coming back asking more questions. The thing is that throughout this period HMRC went into protracted periods of silence and inactivity; once for six months!!! They now know that they are on shaky ground because whatever they say I'm prepared to go to appeal and even court to defend myself. But they know that they don't want to do that because their guidance says they shouldn't behave like this towards contractors. Indeed they promised to deal swiftly with these inquiries from their new investigation teams. They can argue all that they want but they know they have not acted appropriately and will be reticent to go to appeal.

I feel hopeful that I will still have a successful outcome from this situation and feel glad I had a good accountant and IR35 advice. Yes it's cost me extra money but on some level it's been worth it for the experience alone.

What point(s) would you say have been key to demonstrating that you are outside of IR35?

Do you have any idea why they picked on you in the first place?

Do you have any idea when they are going to close the investigation?

[DotasScandal]

Firstly please see my other threads for the background to my situation. It's been over a year since I last posted so I've decided to update you. Having been going through this for over two and a half years I can now say that I've moved beyond the initial horror of it, and can reflect on how much I've learned. Although I wouldn't want anyone else to go through it I would say that I've become wise to the underhand and nasty tricks that HMRC play, and I have no hesitation in saying that they are the most disingenuous bullies I have encountered. The stunts and tricks they pull no longer surprise me. But they are like a dog with a bone and keep going back again and again in the hope that they will uncover something to get you into IR35.

After finally saying they deemed me to be inside IR35 I managed to find my end client whom hired me for the contract and he went into discussion with HMRC around the usuals; personal service, control, MOO and right of substitution. I now see it clearly that I was never inside IR35 but still they keep coming back asking more questions. The thing is that throughout this period HMRC went into protracted periods of silence and inactivity; once for six months!!! They now know that they are on shaky ground because whatever they say I'm prepared to go to appeal and even court to defend myself. But they know that they don't want to do that because their guidance says they shouldn't behave like this towards contractors. Indeed they promised to deal swiftly with these inquiries from their new investigation teams. They can argue all that they want but they know they have not acted appropriately and will be reticent to go to appeal.

I feel hopeful that I will still have a successful outcome from this situation and feel glad I had a good accountant and IR35 advice. Yes it's cost me extra money but on some level it's been worth it for the experience alone.

Kudos for standing your ground! Yes, it would seem that HMRC is mostly staffed with sociopathic types that will just never let go and never admit to being wrong. Sorry you have to go through this kind of tulip, comrade, and hope the end of the tunnel is near for you.

[Martley]

A reminder that IR35 has not gone away.

It certainly hasn't gone away but what I now realise is how hard it is for HMRC to categorically prove you're inside it.