Where are the rules that clients will use to determine your IR35 status?

**BlueSharp** · 28 August 2019, 07:51

A whole host of threads discussing what employment status means in this section of the forum!

April 2020 changes to off-payroll working for clients - GOV.UK

Taking reasonable care when making a determination

You must take reasonable care when you make a determination about the employment status of a worker.

Failure to do so will result in the worker’s tax and National Insurance contributions liability becoming your responsibility.

**ChimpMaster** · 28 August 2019, 07:58

Thanks, I had read that link but still there are no criteria detailed, which clients will use to determine our status. Lots of references made to "rules", but where are those damned rules!!

Surely it can't be just this: Check employment status for tax - GOV.UK i.e. CEST

**BlueSharp** · 28 August 2019, 08:06

Originally posted by ChimpMaster View Post

Thanks, I had read that link but still there are no criteria detailed, which clients will use to determine our status. Lots of references made to "rules", but where are those damned rules!!

Surely it can't be just this: Check employment status for tax - GOV.UK i.e. CEST

HMRC have already said they won't stand by CEST at a tribuneral. So we can only go on existing ir35 rules and case law.

**northernladuk** · 28 August 2019, 08:14

Smart clients, and it seems there are quite a few so far, are engaging with tax specialists to help them with their determinations.

So no its not just CEST in the best cases. If they are just using it then they aren't approaching it very well.

**Patrick@Intouch** · 28 August 2019, 08:26

The way that IR35 status is determined isn't changing but who is making that determination is. Control, personal service and MOO are still central to any status assessment and there is a lot of legal precedent and case law that can be used for guidance.

It is unlikely that private business will want to spend time becoming experts and so the smart thing to do is to engage with one. Surely, engaging a firm with history of advising and guiding contractors with regards to their IR35 status constitutes taking reasonable care and there are a lot for businesses doing just this (as pointed out by NLUK)

**pscont** · 28 August 2019, 08:44

Originally posted by Patrick@Intouch View Post

The way that IR35 status is determined isn't changing but who is making that determination is. Control, personal service and MOO are still central to any status assessment and there is a lot of legal precedent and case law that can be used for guidance.

It is unlikely that private business will want to spend time becoming experts and so the smart thing to do is to engage with one. Surely, engaging a firm with history of advising and guiding contractors with regards to their IR35 status constitutes taking reasonable care and there are a lot for businesses doing just this (as pointed out by NLUK)

Really, it would be great if you name 20 of the top 50 companies in the UK (by revenue) that do so. I think 'all in' will be the norm. They simply can not be bothered.

**northernladuk** · 28 August 2019, 08:49

Originally posted by pscont View Post

Really, it would be great if you name 20 of the top 50 companies in the UK (by revenue) that do so. I think 'all in' will be the norm. They simply can not be bothered.

Absolute not. We've already been though this with Public Sector and it didn't happen so it's even less likely to happen in the private.

I also know for a fact they can as my client has a cross company forum set up with at least 6 other very large companies in the area.

Actually, why am I even explaining this. You are clearly trolling.

**pscont** · 28 August 2019, 08:52

Originally posted by northernladuk View Post

Absolute rubbish. We've already been though this with Public Sector and it didn't happen so it's even less likely to happen in the private.

I also know for a fact they can as my client has a cross company forum set up with at leat 6 other very large companies in the area.

Actually, why am I even explaining this. You are clearly trolling.

I dont know why do you think that you are the center of the universe and your experience is the only norm/reality.
Ultimate bollox as always from you. I feel sorry for your partner for having to put up with you.

**ShandyDrinker** · 28 August 2019, 08:55

Originally posted by ChimpMaster View Post

Apologies if this info is on the forum somewhere but I've searched and read for hours but no joy. I've read the half-arsed government publications on this but still don't see the boundaries on which we will be judged.

The question is: Where are the rules that clients will use to determine your IR35 status from April 2020?

It surely cannot be CEST alone!

If you want to see the rules, they will (hopefully) eventually be committed to github.

The current rules are available in spreadsheet form from 1.5.0-final.xlsx.

To see precisely what changes they're making, monitor:

To get an indication of what the new questions will be in the GUI then changes to this file (among numerous others) will give an indication of what is incoming:

off-payroll-frontend/messages.en

Where are the rules that clients will use to determine your IR35 status?