IR35 - End Client and determination after using tool

[Gomez]

Interesting post and the situation you find yourself in is one that I am hoping that I don't also find myself in shortly.
I am waiting for a decision from the end client on the status of my engagement and they too are using the tool. I have entered into the contract already after previously working with my hiring manager to determine the status using the tool. This came up with 'Outside' but I am now told that the ultimate decision will come from the procurement dept (different dept from hiring manager). Although my hiring manager is happy and has forwarded his tool output..err let me rephrase that, 'the HMRC status checker result' onto procurement, there is no promise or guarantee they will use this.

A lot hinges on the response to the question "What does the worker have to provide for this engagement that they can't claim as an expense from the end client or agency?"

If the client states 'N/A', I'm inside. I (like you) need insurance for this engagement. I have considerable expenses staying away from home but these are not considered. Perhaps there is one difference in my case; My LTD company won this work through the Digitial Outcomes and Specialists' framework after a competed application process. Now I am in the contract, my LTD has to pay Crown Commercial Services a fixed percentage of my invoice value each month. Surely that is a great example of something that I need to provide for this engagement but can't claim back from the client as an expense? Problem is, how the hell will the procurement department know this without asking me?. I will just have to wait and see. I feel your pain and am apprehensive at this stage.

Good Morning

My End PSB client has completed a Online HMRC tool based determination on me and have said that they consider me to be in scope of IR35

I complete disagree with their findings

I am having many issues trying to convince my end PSB client that they have incorrectly filled out the HMRC online Tool.

What does the worker have to provide for this engagement that they can't
claim as an expense from the end client or agency?

My client answered the above question as not relevant

As part of my assignment I must provide Evidence of insurance policies in place for public liability, professional indemnity and employer’s liability. I have sent them my various certificates.

My view is that the above cost would mean that they need to select 'other expenses' as this is something which I must provide and cannot claim back.

The second thing that I am questioning them on is there answer for If the end client is not satisfied with the work, does the worker have to put it right at their own cost

No the worker would have to put it right in their usual hours at the usual rate of pay, or for an additional rate of pay.

After closely looking into my agency with the contact with the Agency it clearly states that I would need to put this right at my own cost, if I make any mistakes, or I do not carry out my role with the reasonable care or skill. The end client could reject my timesheet and I don't get paid for a week if I have not done my work correctly. The end client has been sent a copy of the contract

So my view is that they should have selected the following answer

Yes - the worker would have to put it right without an additional charge, and would incur significant additional expenses or material costs.

Finally when I present evidence to them they keep on saying that they have made their minds and that the determination sticks. I am wondering what to do next?

[TheFaQQer]

Problem is, how the hell will the procurement department know this without asking me?

Tell them. Or tell your client contact and get them to tell procurement. Because sure as eggs is eggs, the procurement department aren't going to come and ask you what the answer to each question is. They aren't aware of this expense, so you need to make sure that you get the message to them so that they can complete the question accurately.

The tool asks lots of questions that the client are unlikely to know, which then pushes your determination towards at best an indeterminate one and at worst one which does not reflect the reality of the situation.

CCS are looking closely at the impact of the new rules (), but you need to make your client aware of the expenses that you incur so that they can accurately complete their assessment.

[Gomez]

Yep totally agree. I've already told the client that I am willing to provide my copy of the tool output completed prior to starting the engagement but you've given me the impetus to spell it out a bit more clearly.

Tell them. Or tell your client contact and get them to tell procurement. Because sure as eggs is eggs, the procurement department aren't going to come and ask you what the answer to each question is. They aren't aware of this expense, so you need to make sure that you get the message to them so that they can complete the question accurately.

The tool asks lots of questions that the client are unlikely to know, which then pushes your determination towards at best an indeterminate one and at worst one which does not reflect the reality of the situation.

CCS are looking closely at the impact of the new rules (), but you need to make your client aware of the expenses that you incur so that they can accurately complete their assessment.

[northernladuk]

Yep totally agree. I've already told the client that I am willing to provide my copy of the tool output completed prior to starting the engagement but you've given me the impetus to spell it out a bit more clearly.

Any chance you can put the quote before your response. Makes it hard to understand the context of your reply on a mobile device if.you have to scroll down first to see what your are replying to. Ta

[Gomez]

Any chance you can put the quote before your response. Makes it hard to understand the context of your reply on a mobile device if.you have to scroll down first to see what your are replying to. Ta

Yep! I'll remember next time too :-)

[eek]

What's the problem?

Yep! I'll remember next time too :-)

[Gomez]

Boom - just had confirmation from client that they assess the engagement as outside IR35. It was itchy bum time for about 3 weeks waiting for this. Good to know that you can be outside IR35 if you go direct using the Digital Outcomes and Specialists framework.

[bobspud]

Boom - just had confirmation from client that they assess the engagement as outside IR35. It was itchy bum time for about 3 weeks waiting for this. Good to know that you can be outside IR35 if you go direct using the Digital Outcomes and Specialists framework.

You should not be anything but outside on dos...

The key tenet for digital outcomes and specialists is that the supplier owns the risk for the delivery. Its in the contract terms and conditions and stated in the guidelines for use of the framework. It tells the departments that if they need to retain ownership of the delivery they need to use CL1 instead...

So no ownership of delivery equals no control and direction thus outside.

[mudskipper]

You should not be anything but outside on dos...

The key tenet for digital outcomes and specialists is that the supplier owns the risk for the delivery. Its in the contract terms and conditions and stated in the guidelines for use of the framework. It tells the departments that if they need to retain ownership of the delivery they need to use CL1 instead...

So no ownership of delivery equals no control and direction thus outside.

A tad optimistic -

Top opportunity on the list this evening.

https://www.digitalmarketplace.servi...rtunities/4876

A 50 day contract - "Intermediaries legislation applies to this assignment (Inside IR35)" (they even tell you you are taking 30 minutes for lunch.)

[bobspud]

A tad optimistic -

Top opportunity on the list this evening.

https://www.digitalmarketplace.servi...rtunities/4876

A 50 day contract - "Intermediaries legislation applies to this assignment (Inside IR35)" (they even tell you you are taking 30 minutes for lunch.)

The problem is that the MoD are still being very blanket in their approach. I have a feeling that will change soon.