Staying in the same public sector contract after April 2017

[difficulttimes]

Because people are greedy and that survey is more woe is me than anything constructive.

Now I'll be blunt here but while I dislike HMRC's approach the level of blatant abuse I saw when in the public sector last year was so great that something had to be done.

What is 'abuse'? For starters we all know that IR35 is not the answer to tackling this issue, which is why the report into the gig economy needed to come out first before making any decisions as the tax code has not kept pace with the way that people work.

IR35 was never intended to work in this manner, I hear that it is a 'grey' piece of legislation. Well actually it isn't if it is applied as it was set out to. ie. Uber and Deliveroo

All this creates is uncertainty.

[LondonManc]

+1. The other bit to add is that this would now be a political issue as much as a legal one and politically the department is going to do everything it can to protect its current decision to avoid

• the political fallout that would destroy the careers of any civil servant involved
• what could potentially be a very large bill

Can I add the more I look into this the more impressed I am with both how Machiavellian and how completely thought through the scheme is.

The implementation and communication is however following the usual Keystone Cops approach which these thing inevitably have.

I don't think they'd bother about throwing a couple of junior analysts under the proverbial (underground) train.

[eek]

What is 'abuse'? For starters we all know that IR35 is not the answer to tackling this issue, which is why the report into the gig economy needed to come out first before making any decisions as the tax code has not kept pace with the way that people work.

IR35 was never intended to work in this manner, I hear that it is a 'grey' piece of legislation. Well actually it isn't if it is applied as it was set out to. ie. Uber and Deliveroo

All this creates is uncertainty.

IR35 has nothing to do with Uber and Deliveroo... It is designed to catch those who pretend to not be employees to maximise their take home pay by working via a limited company when in reality they should be employees of the end client...

The decision as to whether they are employees or not may be a decision made by the contractor but it could equally well be a decision made by the end client for convenience or political reasons.

In the case of the public sector there are an awful lot of places with head count restrictions who are using contractors to fill in gaps because they cannot increase headcount - and one part of these changes will stop that abuse...

[eek]

I don't think they'd bother about throwing a couple of junior analysts under the proverbial (underground) train.

It's not the junior analyst who is going to be fired here but the HR director or senior departmental management. Senior management are risk adverse which is why I suspect there will be blanket decisions with exceptions here and there rather than general use of any tool...

Short term from May onwards for a while most adverts for public sector contracts will have the words inside IR35 attached to them... I also suspect those who argue that they are outside will discover they have no work to do...

[difficulttimes]

IR35 has nothing to do with Uber and Deliveroo... It is designed to catch those who pretend to not be employees to maximise their take home pay by working via a limited company when in reality they should be employees of the end client...

.

Read the legislation and come back and see me.. I'm pretty sure there is no mention of limited company in the legislation (definitely not PSCs which is a HMRC new age term)

It was intended to protect the employees - not attack them!

[LondonManc]

It's not the junior analyst who is going to be fired here but the HR director or senior departmental management. Senior management are risk adverse which is why I suspect there will be blanket decisions with exceptions here and there rather than general use of any tool...

Short term from May onwards for a while most adverts for public sector contracts will have the words inside IR35 attached to them... I also suspect those who argue that they are outside will discover they have no work to do...

I think that will very much depend on the power that the department head/hiring manager has when he finds out he can have absolute dross inside or force the issue to get professionals in.

That being said, there needs to be an acceptance that there is a substantial percentage of contractors who should be inside IR35; unfortunately with public sector rates being poor, being deemed inside IR35 will feel like a massive double whammy for contractors who will get a bigger shock when they find out that the private sector simply doesn't have sufficient roles to take up the slack.

[BoredBloke]

IR35 has nothing to do with Uber and Deliveroo... It is designed to catch those who pretend to not be employees to maximise their take home pay by working via a limited company when in reality they should be employees of the end client...

The decision as to whether they are employees or not may be a decision made by the contractor but it could equally well be a decision made by the end client for convenience or political reasons.

In the case of the public sector there are an awful lot of places with head count restrictions who are using contractors to fill in gaps because they cannot increase headcount - and one part of these changes will stop that abuse...

No IR35 was supposed to be about stopping employers forcing their staff out of employment and reemploying them on a self employed basis. It was all about trying to protect employees and their rights. It was then seen as a handy way to make a tax grab.

But that said, the abuse in the contractor community is pretty limited. Our payments tend to be electronic and easy to trace. We don't work cash in hand and we don't buy/sell goods and fiddle the VAT. Yet we are the easy targets here. I know plenty of traders who abuse the system. Builders/plumbers who work for cash - how much of that sees their books? How many of his customers does our window cleaner declare. I know an ice cream man whose old freezer in his van 'fails' at least once a year meaning he has to dump his stock. Which is a handy way of selling half your stuff tax free.

I'm not claiming that abuse does not go on, but it is nothing in comparison to other small businesses who are not targets of this.

Regarding the abuse of the rules in the public sector - if people are being employed off the pay roll who really should be employees then change the rules. Don't penalise everybody for some perceived abuse of the system by a small minority.

[northernladuk]

I think that will very much depend on the power that the department head/hiring manager has when he finds out he can have absolute dross inside or force the issue to get professionals in.

That being said, there needs to be an acceptance that there is a substantial percentage of contractors who should be inside IR35; unfortunately with public sector rates being poor, being deemed inside IR35 will feel like a massive double whammy for contractors who will get a bigger shock when they find out that the private sector simply doesn't have sufficient roles to take up the slack.

A further problem is many of these contractors that try and argue they are outside probably don't know enough about IR35 to argue it. If they did most of them wouldn't have been there for decades. It's a big ask for many to pull their heads out of their arses to address this, let alone suddenly understand IR35 to a level they are comfortable arguing it. Most that will say 'outside' won't have a clue what outside really is. It will only take a couple of idiots trying and failing before they stop listening and yet again those that really do know will suffer the fall out of the eejits.

[MrMarkyMark]

A further problem is many of these contractors that try and argue they are outside probably don't know enough about IR35 to argue it. If they did most of them wouldn't have been there for decades. It's a big ask for many to pull your head out of their arses to address this, let alone suddenly understand IR35 to a level they are comfortable arguing it. Most that will say 'outside' won't have a clue what outside really is. It will only take a couple of idiots trying and failing before they stop listening and yet again those that really do know will suffer the fall out of the eejits.

Totally this

[LondonManc]

A further problem is many of these contractors that try and argue they are outside probably don't know enough about IR35 to argue it. If they did most of them wouldn't have been there for decades. It's a big ask for many to pull your head out of their arses to address this, let alone suddenly understand IR35 to a level they are comfortable arguing it. Most that will say 'outside' won't have a clue what outside really is. It will only take a couple of idiots trying and failing before they stop listening and yet again those that really do know will suffer the fall out of the eejits.

Correct. That said, the point that really annoys me is that they're getting at contractors' revenues to recover business NICs from the client.