Loan charge

[creativity]

Being that we have passed the 5th April 2023 can we clarify a few things:

1) if you haven't received an enquiry on loans that you included in your 2019 self assessment, hmrc are now out of time
2) same question but loans that were not included in your 2019 self assessment deliberately
3) same question but loans that were not included mistakenly
4) being out of time, does that now stand forever or can hmrc simply change the rules again

doesnt affect me but intrugued to understand how the hmrc rules works...

[DealorNoDeal]

HMRC seemed to be rushing out discos last month for people who hadn't declared loans on their 2018/19 self-assessment, which suggests they're treating this as "careless" under the 4-year rule. I guess it would be difficult to prove if it was deliberate.

[GregRickshaw]

Being that we have passed the 5th April 2023 can we clarify a few things:

1) if you haven't received an enquiry on loans that you included in your 2019 self assessment, hmrc are now out of time
2) same question but loans that were not included in your 2019 self assessment deliberately
3) same question but loans that were not included mistakenly
4) being out of time, does that now stand forever or can hmrc simply change the rules again

doesnt affect me but intrugued to understand how the hmrc rules works...

In theory

1) Yes they are out of time - however they have a habit of sending you things months after the deadline, as long as it has printed on the letter Issued on or before 5/4/2023 - so you are not 'out of the woods' yet.

2) Tough one for them to prove, given the complexity of the loan charge, the many schemes, the genuine unknowns. They would have to have it proved under oath somewhere you had deliberately not told them. So unless you are a very high profile celebrity or a very high taxpayer who doesn't seem to pay enough tax, I doubt they would take you to any kind of court to have it proven.

3) As above, but if you then fessed up later when asked they would happily start the loan charge procedure against you, as they would claim actually you had deliberately not told them.

4) If you have ever dealt with HMRC in anyway, they do have a nasty habit of changing the rules/law to suit them, who knows if a case we don't know about is going on right now which will give them new rights to look in different places and further back, cough Hoey...

I doubt you will ever be able to relax if you haven't settled.

[DealorNoDeal]

Dodging the LC is only a "win" if the years, you were in the scheme, are closed. If you've got open years, HMRC can still come after you.

[GregRickshaw]

Dodging the LC is only a "win" if the years, you were in the scheme, are closed. If you've got open years, HMRC can still come after you.

yes this too

[creativity]

Dodging the LC is only a "win" if the years, you were in the scheme, are closed. If you've got open years, HMRC can still come after you.

What years are now closed? As of today aren't closed years 2013-2014 and before? Or any years after where settlements have been made and closed of course.

[GregRickshaw]

What years are now closed? As of today aren't closed years 2013-2014 and before? Or any years after where settlements have been made and closed of course.

In theory yes, until HMRC change the rules/law which they will at some point.

[GregRickshaw]

Interesting possibly worrying development posted by webberg on LinkedIn

Which kind of reenforces my thinking that HMRC will and can come after long overturned schemes regardless of dates (possibly) by winning cases we just don't know about and getting laws changed... maybe

https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update...0917208121344/

[creativity]

Interesting possibly worrying development posted by webberg on LinkedIn

Which kind of reenforces my thinking that HMRC will and can come after long overturned schemes regardless of dates (possibly) by winning cases we just don't know about and getting laws changed... maybe

https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update...0917208121344/

I was involved with Sanzar but thankfully have settled all years with HMRC!

I have skimmed through the case document and clearly HMRC raised the discovery within four years so a valid claim by HMRC. What is the difference between an assessment and a discovery?