Churchill Knight & Boox clients being investigated as Managed Service Companies

[GregRickshaw]

Forgive my ignorance, I have read through the thread, but how did CK act any differently to any other large contractor accountant, ie SJD. I used SJD for a number of years up to 2020 when I dissolved my limited.

I’m just trying to work out whether I should be concerned or not.

Thanks in advance.

That is what has us all scratching our heads at, including CK it seems.

There are some apparently pertinent points which CK have been caught on. If SJD did those then yes maybe they will be caught but we just don't know right now how CK and SJD (for instance) differ, when it seems they both do very similar.

Most of us are concerned who are involved, if you have a model similar to CK then yes you probably should be concerned, but having said that it looks as though Hector are only going after CK and Boox so at least by April 5th you will have one less year to worry about should your particular accountant be tested later.

As many have said this move will generate huge revenue but more importantly it may encourage many who are currently LTD and working through a similar solution into the arms of the Umbrellas, thereby a huge win for Hector.

The way to stop any problems from here on in seem to be Freeagent and Xero way...



These cases have come from Hector's win a few years ago so now they are pushing the next part of the process, if CK and Boox fail to win, the floodgates will well and truly open.

[GregRickshaw]

Hi all, another affected CK user here.

I've read through the whole thread, from what I can see these steps are the best course of action for us - can anyone just greenlight this for me?

1. Submit the appeal (to block acceptance of the determination, pending the tribunal)
2. Do the PoA to prevent the interest building up while we wait for the outcome (can anyone tell me what the interest rate is? what %pa?)
3. Close our CK accounts and move to a FA accountant.

Thanks in advance.

1 100%
2 Really a personal choice based on confidence of the appeal. It's a decent choice as you won't be hit 3 years down the line.
3 Yes going forward but remember Hector is promising to go after all the other years (read the FT article if you can) and the NI for all of those years.

[forticorse]

Forgive my ignorance, I have read through the thread, but how did CK act any differently to any other large contractor accountant, ie SJD. I used SJD for a number of years up to 2020 when I dissolved my limited.

I’m just trying to work out whether I should be concerned or not.

Thanks in advance.

Crunch user here, all this has gotten me worried they might be next. While what they have offered is far more hands off than some of the stuff I've read on here about CK/Boox, I'm wondering how exposed they are if nothing else due to the custom platform (Presumably its a similar deal for Intouch/Inni too). I get the impression from this thread that anyone using anything FreeAgent/Xero probably doesn't have anything to worry about.

[Sonic3389]

1 100%
2 Really a personal choice based on confidence of the appeal. It's a decent choice as you won't be hit 3 years down the line.
3 Yes going forward but remember Hector is promising to go after all the other years (read the FT article if you can) and the NI for all of those years.

Thanks, I think it would be smartest to work inline with the old saying, hope for the best, prepare for the worst.

I've sent my CK appeal letter in already, just waiting for the HMRC confirmation - from what I can see no one has received this yet , CK indicated they'd start sending them out later this week.

I'll go ahead and sort my PoA over the next couple of days as well.

I don't have a FT account but I'm not sure what you mean, Hectors only going after the following years we'll have with CK right? If our relationship ends with them right now and we use a vanilla FA accountant for the next 2-3 years etc they wont be able to get us for those years? Or is there some info I've missed?

[GregRickshaw]

That is what has us all scratching our heads at, including CK it seems.

There are some apparently pertinent points which CK have been caught on. If SJD did those then yes maybe they will be caught but we just don't know right now how CK and SJD (for instance) differ, when it seems they both do very similar.

Most of us are concerned who are involved, if you have a model similar to CK then yes you probably should be concerned, but having said that it looks as though Hector are only going after CK and Boox so at least by April 5th you will have one less year to worry about should your particular accountant be tested later.

As many have said this move will generate huge revenue but more importantly it will move all of those who are currently LTD and working through a similar solution into the arms of the Umbrellas, thereby a huge win for Hector.

The way to stop any problems from here on in seem to be Freeagent and Xero way...



These cases have come from Hector's win a few years ago so now they are pushing the next part of the process, if CK and Boox fail to win, the floodgates will well and truly open.

Thanks, I think it would be smartest to work inline with the old saying, hope for the best, prepare for the worst.

I've sent my CK appeal letter in already, just waiting for the HMRC confirmation - from what I can see no one has received this yet , CK indicated they'd start sending them out later this week.

I'll go ahead and sort my PoA over the next couple of days as well.

I don't have a FT account but I'm not sure what you mean, Hectors only going after the following years we'll have with CK right? If our relationship ends with them right now and we use a vanilla FA accountant for the next 2-3 years etc they wont be able to get us for those years? Or is there some info I've missed?

At the moment Hector is ONLY going after 17/18 with CK yes.

But regardless of winning or not more letters are due to be received for NI claims for that year 17/18 AND they (Hector) have reserved the right to start sending letters for 18/19 19/20 20/21 etc., for CK clients (and Boox apparently).

BUT as you say only the years you were with CK so if you switched after 17/18, for this particular investigation it won't naturally follow you will get letters for your other accountants practices.

[jamesbrown]

I don't have a FT account but I'm not sure what you mean, Hectors only going after the following years we'll have with CK right? If our relationship ends with them right now and we use a vanilla FA accountant for the next 2-3 years etc they wont be able to get us for those years? Or is there some info I've missed?

In principle, yes, but remember that we're still scratching our heads about how CK could be an MSCP involved with MSCs (versus some other accountants that I can think of who actually prepared invoices for their client's clients!) so, depending on the outcome of these cases, the scope could be wider than we think. Using Xero or FA won't, in itself, protect you unless you're doing the accounts yourself, in which case I think there is basically zero risk. If you have an accountant using FA or Xero that is very hands on or provides only limited access to these tools, the risk still exists, although it may well be smaller than with CK and others that have their own portals (aka "no operational independence" in HMRC's language). Bottom line, to eliminate risk completely, you'll need to do the accounts yourself. Second best would be an accountant to prepare and/or review the year-end returns on an ad-hoc basis.

[Fred Bloggs]

Forgive my ignorance, I have read through the thread, but how did CK act any differently to any other large contractor accountant, ie SJD. I used SJD for a number of years up to 2020 when I dissolved my limited.

I’m just trying to work out whether I should be concerned or not.

Thanks in advance.

At risk if going off topic - But you could expand a little on this please?

Were SJD then still using the (in)famous Simon Dolan spreadsheet in that period? Were SJD using FreeAgent, Xero? Or an in house developed portal for contractors to use?

The only real MSC risk I can see here is if SJD were/are using a SJD developed custom portal.

Hope that helps.

[Fred Bloggs]

At risk if going off topic - But you could expand a little on this please?

Were SJD then still using the (in)famous Simon Dolan spreadsheet in that period? Were SJD using FreeAgent, Xero? Or an in house developed portal for contractors to use?

The only real MSC risk I can see here is if SJD were/are using a SJD developed custom portal.

Hope that helps.

Hmmm, I am very interested in the answer because 10 seconds ago I copied this from SJD's website -

Perfect for those already comfortable with their contracting journey and all you need along the way. Essential provides all of the integral services for your career.

Included is all you need to keep your company moving, including annual accounts, VAT returns and all company administrative needs. With our Essential package, all of your admin is taken care of, leaving you to get on and run your business. You also get access to our bespoke accounting platform which gives you on-demand access to your financial figures.

[cojak]

Hmmm, I am very interested in the answer because 10 seconds ago I copied this from SJD's website -

Oh Dear…

[jamesbrown]

Hmmm, I am very interested in the answer because 10 seconds ago I copied this from SJD's website -

Looks like they have a bespoke portal.

https://sjdaccountancy.com/our-services/sjd-online/

Quite a few accountants do for reasons I have yet to fathom (quite apart from this recent reason).