Churchill Knight & Boox clients being investigated as Managed Service Companies

[GregRickshaw]

I've heard of people getting TTPs as long as 20 years if that helps.

It does help I'm sure

Mine was 10 years, eventually paid it off in five

geekergosum take heart and stay strong.

[geekergosum]

Try to stay strong my friend, this is a dreadful situation right now.

Trying to! The part I struggle with the most is the uncertainty, and lack of haste from either HMRC and Boox in answering any emails and phones is extra frustrating.

First thing to remember here is your current liability does not account for the amount of Corporation Tax, Dividend Tax and personal NIC you have paid already...

I've got my totals of tax I've paid over the period of time, but as you say I would like for HMRC to tell me how much I owe in total so we can then begin the period of discussing what I've paid and the final amount I owe. As this is not the end of the determinations I can imagine you have to keep going back year after year to calculate what is still owed or been paid off.

As to your personal situation, HMRC cannot take your home! over this especially if you have under 18s in the home as you seem to, they can ultimately put a charge against your home if it came to that dreadful place, your MP would never allow you to become homeless over this, neither any court in the land.

HMRC can yes take your possessions (Car etc., but who cares about a car?) but there are strict rules again around this, with you having young children too (by the sounds of it).

That's somewhat reassuring...I have an 8 and 6 year old so it seems like they may have some use I've not leant on my MP at the moment, but he knows my family (he was a local councillor as was my father) but this was my biggest worry that I would be forced to sell the house to cover any debt. I'm not even thinking about putting the debt into the mortgage as it is large enough already and with the recent rate changes it would be deciding if either the Bank or HMRC is more reasonable (rock and hard place).

A TTP is not so bad you know, your MP can help you here and your CAB etc.,

Trust me on this I had a much bigger liability thanks to the EBT, Loan schemes I got mixed up in. You get through it. I had a very long TTP and I have to say HMRC were quite accommodating on this.

This is good to know. If I have to pay (and I still refute the original findings) then I want to be able to pay in a way that I am not penny pinching the rest of my life. My wife is concerned that if we have a huge debt it will destroy our finances (but she's American so sees the impact of medical bills and student loans). Obviously what I want is to know how much I owe in total so I can plan and budget accordingly but neither HMRC or Boox are in a rush (HMRC because "just pay us now" and Boox "err we don't want to be liable so we'll hide").

My plan is to ring HMRC to discuss the outlines of :

• What I may be liable for.
• How the existing tax payments should be deducted.
• The basis of a TTP plan based on this.

I would like to pay them a set amount (say£100 per month) while this case is still going through, and then if they win the agreed TTP would come into action. I've never dealt with HMRC like this as I always paid on time but is this something they entertain. HMRC seems very reluctant to talk about TTP...even their 'avoidance' scare campaign seems to gloss over that part.

I still disagree that I was controlled by Boox as:

• I setup my business account before I began with Boox (I have this on record at Bank)
• I setup my business before I began with Boox (On record at companies house)
• I determined my salary (copies of emails)
• I would alter the dividend 'calculation' each month (each month is a nice round number)
• Boox completed my VAT and Tax return calculations but I approved them (again on emails)
• I sent money from the Business account to HMRC (from my bank statements I had to supply to Boox to complete VAT and CT)

I've lurked here since this started, so know the support from this community is fantastic, so thanks for the reply and to others for the support.

My wife thinks only Sociopaths must work at HMRC...but if anyone has been watching Andor (and you should) then the ISB gives serious Hector vibes, but their agents must also see Syril as the hero!

[GregRickshaw]

David Kirk is offering a service to work out your liability for a fee of £250 +VAT may be worth it for piece of mind, however this situation is fluid so who knows.

The biggest thing here is making sure HMRC do not double tax us.

HMRC unfortunately will tell you that is what you are liable for

HMRC at this stage though believe every penny is owed so at this stage there is zero negotiation with them.

You can buy tax vouchers instead of paying on account, remember though right now this is a company debt so not a personal one, so maybe transfer money from your personal account into your business account and buy or PoA from there. I don't believe there is a minimum amount you can PoA but the longer you take (which is still good and something for personal health) the interest will continue to accumulate.

I was sort of joking but you may be better off saving in Premium Bonds (zero interest for sure but a chance to win something and better than dumping them in HMRC's bank).

I agree with your wife!

[Guy Incognito]

Trying to! The part I struggle with the most is the uncertainty, and lack of haste from either HMRC and Boox in answering any emails and phones is extra frustrating.



I've got my totals of tax I've paid over the period of time, but as you say I would like for HMRC to tell me how much I owe in total so we can then begin the period of discussing what I've paid and the final amount I owe. As this is not the end of the determinations I can imagine you have to keep going back year after year to calculate what is still owed or been paid off.



That's somewhat reassuring...I have an 8 and 6 year old so it seems like they may have some use I've not leant on my MP at the moment, but he knows my family (he was a local councillor as was my father) but this was my biggest worry that I would be forced to sell the house to cover any debt. I'm not even thinking about putting the debt into the mortgage as it is large enough already and with the recent rate changes it would be deciding if either the Bank or HMRC is more reasonable (rock and hard place).



This is good to know. If I have to pay (and I still refute the original findings) then I want to be able to pay in a way that I am not penny pinching the rest of my life. My wife is concerned that if we have a huge debt it will destroy our finances (but she's American so sees the impact of medical bills and student loans). Obviously what I want is to know how much I owe in total so I can plan and budget accordingly but neither HMRC or Boox are in a rush (HMRC because "just pay us now" and Boox "err we don't want to be liable so we'll hide").

My plan is to ring HMRC to discuss the outlines of :

• What I may be liable for.
• How the existing tax payments should be deducted.
• The basis of a TTP plan based on this.

I would like to pay them a set amount (say£100 per month) while this case is still going through, and then if they win the agreed TTP would come into action. I've never dealt with HMRC like this as I always paid on time but is this something they entertain. HMRC seems very reluctant to talk about TTP...even their 'avoidance' scare campaign seems to gloss over that part.

I still disagree that I was controlled by Boox as:

• I setup my business account before I began with Boox (I have this on record at Bank)
• I setup my business before I began with Boox (On record at companies house)
• I determined my salary (copies of emails)
• I would alter the dividend 'calculation' each month (each month is a nice round number)
• Boox completed my VAT and Tax return calculations but I approved them (again on emails)
• I sent money from the Business account to HMRC (from my bank statements I had to supply to Boox to complete VAT and CT)

I've lurked here since this started, so know the support from this community is fantastic, so thanks for the reply and to others for the support.

My wife thinks only Sociopaths must work at HMRC...but if anyone has been watching Andor (and you should) then the ISB gives serious Hector vibes, but their agents must also see Syril as the hero!

In my experience you won't get any kind of dialogue from HMRC.

They send you a letter telling you what you owe and you pay it or you appeal and it is stood over.

I don't think they even read the appeals.

[Bendy]

Hi,

Apologies if this has been discussed before but I'm a former boox client, who closed my ltd company down at the end of 2021, am I likely to be on the list of companies to be investigated?

TIA

[geekergosum]

The part about HMRC refusing to engage is what I expected to be honest. Any other body or company is willing to sit down but HMRC worse than extortionists. This is how I described their behaviour to my wife.

With the NIC determination being linked to the MSCP situation would this be stood over until it is all 'resolved'? Obviously how the behavioural unit at HMRC write the letter it makes it sound like they need it NOW! Is the NIC still linked to the company and not personal? Again HMRC show no interest in making it clear (because why would they?).

What I want to have on record ( for my own sanity I know it means naught to them) is that I have spoken to someone. I'm sending them a recorded letter as well so they can't do the 'don't have a record mate' trick.

@gregricksaw - I was in the first calls with David Kirk and there was a mixed response to it, I may look into the total liability because I'm no expert in tax and would happily pay someone for the expertise to work out my tax accurately...like an online accountancy firm

If HMRC made it easy to give them money I would, but if I need to reopen my business account (it was closed as I ceased trading in 2021) then arrange tax vouchers...I'll invest the money in holidays and encourage my wife to save her money. I assume what is mine can be HMRC's but what is her's is hers?

On a side note...the quality of the letter, the spelling and formatting (missing spaces). I used to work in FS...this is a red flag that the letters were fraudulent but in HMRC's case I think it is symptomatic of the lack of care and interest they have in getting things right.

[GregRickshaw]

Hi,

Apologies if this has been discussed before but I'm a former boox client, who closed my ltd company down at the end of 2021, am I likely to be on the list of companies to be investigated?

TIA

If you haven't had the first letter for 17/18 by now, then you are not going to get a determination. Your 18/19 and 19/20 may yet be investigated.

I hear a lot of Boox customers used Boox's address as reg office? Have you asked them if they have forwarded all your mail (if applicable)

Maybe you ran your company with multiple employees or income less than 50% so you may just not be part of the investigation. I would be surprised though as it seems you have to let HMRC know how you ran your company I think at the time they just blanket bombed all CK and Boox clients.

[GregRickshaw]

The part about HMRC refusing to engage is what I expected to be honest. Any other body or company is willing to sit down but HMRC worse than extortionists. This is how I described their behaviour to my wife.

With the NIC determination being linked to the MSCP situation would this be stood over until it is all 'resolved'? Obviously how the behavioural unit at HMRC write the letter it makes it sound like they need it NOW! Is the NIC still linked to the company and not personal? Again HMRC show no interest in making it clear (because why would they?).

What I want to have on record ( for my own sanity I know it means naught to them) is that I have spoken to someone. I'm sending them a recorded letter as well so they can't do the 'don't have a record mate' trick.

@gregricksaw - I was in the first calls with David Kirk and there was a mixed response to it, I may look into the total liability because I'm no expert in tax and would happily pay someone for the expertise to work out my tax accurately...like an online accountancy firm

If HMRC made it easy to give them money I would, but if I need to reopen my business account (it was closed as I ceased trading in 2021) then arrange tax vouchers...I'll invest the money in holidays and encourage my wife to save her money. I assume what is mine can be HMRC's but what is her's is hers?

On a side note...the quality of the letter, the spelling and formatting (missing spaces). I used to work in FS...this is a red flag that the letters were fraudulent but in HMRC's case I think it is symptomatic of the lack of care and interest they have in getting things right.

The NIC(s) apply to your company and your company's employees (you I believe and only you). The NIC can be appealed yes and stood over.

You can get a sit down with HMRC, I managed it through my MP, be very careful in there though as you can incriminate yourself fairly easily with one slip of your wording. Some of your early vernacular you posted here HMRC would be all over so be very careful.

Yip mixed response to all of them WTT and DK they are supposed to be 'experts' but they both (as far as I know) just seem to be sitting back, and waiting for tribunal. They don't appear to be doing anything pro actively (they might of course).

The original HMRC letters which came out had spelling mistakes throughout them, some went to wrong companies too. Not sure about lack of care and interest but they rushed it due to the 17/18 deadline and they do have severe manpower issues.

[Bendy]

If you haven't had the first letter for 17/18 by now, then you are not going to get a determination. Your 18/19 and 19/20 may yet be investigated.

I hear a lot of Boox customers used Boox's address as reg office? Have you asked them if they have forwarded all your mail (if applicable)

Maybe you ran your company with multiple employees or income less than 50% so you may just not be part of the investigation. I would be surprised though as it seems you have to let HMRC know how you ran your company I think at the time they just blanket bombed all CK and Boox clients.

Thanks Greg, I only started trading in April 2019 and closed in down in 2021.

Boox aren't answering emails or the phone, so not no information coming from that direction. I'm just trying to work out if I'm in the "frame" now or in the future, difficult question to answer I know...

Thanks

[GregRickshaw]

Thanks Greg, I only started trading in April 2019 and closed in down in 2021.

Boox aren't answering emails or the phone, so not no information coming from that direction. I'm just trying to work out if I'm in the "frame" now or in the future, difficult question to answer I know...

Thanks

Some good news then

As you incorporated in 2019, there is a possible slim chance of 19/20 but the investigation is for the three years, it seems as a whole.

Yes the liabilities for the years are broken down they are going after those three years together.

It is possible to have individual years thrown out but I haven't seen of anyone yet who is being investigated for just one of the years.

Who knows what may happen after tribunal, who HMRC will go for next and what investigations they may start. Given this one may take at least another 7 years to be resolved then do they have manpower to start new investigations until they get the results?

The word is this one is worth between £75 million and £150 million anyway and they have nothing to lose at all by going for it and once it becomes written law there will be no more investigations just law they can apply.