Churchill Knight & Boox clients being investigated as Managed Service Companies

[jamesbrown]

This is pretty damning. There is no equivalent for CK or Boox that I am aware of.

Yes, in the sense that CBS was blatant (and was lost from the outset). This isn't the issue for CK and Boox, it's far more marginal than CBS in general, including w/r to fees related to services, but there is still a case to answer (at least w/r to a literal interpretation of 61B(2)(a)).

[kvothe]

I have a question about what people are doing... Last year and a half I have been inside IR35 so not invoicing via the company and have had the CK accounting reduced to a minimum deal (almost dormant type).

However, looking at starting a new outside ir35 contract from January and it occurs to me I should change accountants and disassociate myself from CK going forward.

Has anyone done that already? Will it impact access to the appeals portal and updates coming through on the CK side? Also, looking for a recommendation of a good and reputable accountant that does not 'specialise' in contractors to avoid future issues.

[Fred Bloggs]

I have a question about what people are doing... Last year and a half I have been inside IR35 so not invoicing via the company and have had the CK accounting reduced to a minimum deal (almost dormant type).

However, looking at starting a new outside ir35 contract from January and it occurs to me I should change accountants and disassociate myself from CK going forward.

Has anyone done that already? Will it impact access to the appeals portal and updates coming through on the CK side? Also, looking for a recommendation of a good and reputable accountant that does not 'specialise' in contractors to avoid future issues.

In your situation, if the company hasn't traded in the last three months I would be very tempted to strike it off with a DS01. And start again with a new company, definitely using a different (FreeAgent) accountant.

[jamesbrown]

In your situation, if the company hasn't traded in the last three months I would be very tempted to strike it off with a DS01. And start again with a new company, definitely using a different (FreeAgent) accountant.

If the procedure is working properly, I expect the petition to strike off would get rejected by HMRC with an outstanding Reg 80 issued to the company. Ditching CK/Boox sounds like a sensible plan, though (notwithstanding the probable loss of access to their appeals support, for what that is worth - based on recent evidence, not very much).

[Fred Bloggs]

If the procedure is working properly, I expect the petition to strike off would get rejected by HMRC with an outstanding Reg 80 issued to the company. Ditching CK/Boox sounds like a sensible plan, though (notwithstanding the probable loss of access to their appeals support, for what that is worth - based on recent evidence, not very much).

There's only one way to find out and DS01 is about 3 mouse clicks now it's all on line.

[cattochan]

Really glad I found this thread, it's all very worrying and stressful. I have many questions and have asked for a virtual meeting with CK, Osborne Clarke and any of CK's clients that would like to join. Would people be interested in this? If I can show there's interest then hopefully they'll be more likely to organise it.

[bnacontractor]

Does anyone know if a decision or the test cases have actually taken place yet? As I’ve had one tax letter and now today a national insurance letter from HRMC that implies that they have from the working but I wasn’t aware that things had progressed that far? Also I desperately need to get some advice ( as low cost as possible), as I have no way of paying the two bills and I’m literally at breaking point mentally on this and can’t see a solution.

[GregRickshaw]

Does anyone know if a decision or the test cases have actually taken place yet? As I’ve had one tax letter and now today a national insurance letter from HRMC that implies that they have from the working but I wasn’t aware that things had progressed that far? Also I desperately need to get some advice ( as low cost as possible), as I have no way of paying the two bills and I’m literally at breaking point mentally on this and can’t see a solution.

There is always a solution but firstly. It's tough at the moment but remember too this initially is a company debt not personal yet.

Things haven't really progressed since last March to be honest but HMRC have deadlines to get determinations and claims to you to avoid the deadline being missed, seems they are pushing out all years now just to be certain. Annoying and worrying but not unexpected.

No test cases (tribunal) as yet but HMRC are looking at individual companies and applying MSC legislation correctly where they can, some of us who had multiple employees for instance, some of us who paid less than 50% of the income of the business have been removed from the 17/18 investigation (expecting the 18/19 to be removed too) and some companies who had been struck off have been released so there is some progress.

The first letter will be your determination of PAYE HMRC think they are owed, the second ones you are receiving will be for Employers NIC and your own NIC. Now remember at this stage these are HMRC estimating and not taking into account the amount of CT and Dividend Tax and your own NIC contributions you have already paid.

The thing you need to do is to get the NIC charges stood over (I'm assuming by now your 17/18 PAYE determination has been stood over?) if you can't do this yourself, CK have provided and will provide good templates for this, you should consider seeking the help of a professional such as David Kirk (he is relatively cheap compared to the other good alternatives and seems a good guy)

We have all been there and frustrated and mentally exhausted but remember the ultimate payment if we lose will be a lot less than what they are asking for now because they 'should' refund your CT, Dividend Tax and your own NIC you should not get double taxed.

If you are able to try to PoA from your company funds as this prevents interest and this case has a long way to go yet possibly 5 more years.

Ultimately too remember if we do lose and everything is proven there is always a way to get a long TTP so don't despair too much.

[Chevalier]

Does anyone know if a decision or the test cases have actually taken place yet? As I’ve had one tax letter and now today a national insurance letter from HRMC that implies that they have from the working but I wasn’t aware that things had progressed that far? Also I desperately need to get some advice ( as low cost as possible), as I have no way of paying the two bills and I’m literally at breaking point mentally on this and can’t see a solution.

Haven’t seen any letters, but it is possible that HMRC are referring to the Costelloe MSC cases, which is a completely different animal. This can be found on the HMRC website

As many have discussed here, this may or may not be relevant to you depending on your own circumstances.

[yama]

If you are able to try to PoA from your company funds as this prevents interest and this case has a long way to go yet possibly 5 more years.

I've heard mention of PoA to prevent interest, but are they better directed to a specific class of NIC? Are these PoA, for example, to the usual income tax and class 4 NIC made at self-assessment, or for class 2 or 3 NIC only?