Finance Bill 2017-18 V HMRC DR Settlement Terms

[BrownOwl]

Yes I got independent advice. I asked my Mum. She didn’t tell me what I wanted hear, so I asked my brother. He said he was going down the pub and please don’t bother me with stupid questions. I was running out of options because i don’t have many people in my life. But I managed to get hold of the postman and I asked him and he said ‘will you sign here please’. It was a book on how to think positive from amazon, so I was dead chuffed. I got out my rose coloured glasses, took myself off to bed with a glass of warm milk and got completely lost somewhere between chanting ‘om’ and telling myself how really really valuable I am.I forgot to ask anyone after that. Silly me.

So you took HMRC at their word?

There's only one winner in this game of chess.

[WestWorld]

I also setted under CLSO1 and had a similar experience. Even though I had the contract of settlement stating they wouldn't ask for payment for the closed year I had included in the declaration, I wrote to them to check that the tax from the closed year wouldn't be included in the 2019 charge. They wrote back saying that the 2019 charge would not apply to the closed year as it was included in the settlement. This was in 2015 also.

I did have to pay IHT on all the loans when I got them written off in 2016, even the closed year.

My loans have been written off already so I will have to pay IHT? I didn't know about the 2019 charge in 2015 as I only heard about it recently. How am I supposed to keep up with all this information. I never knew any of this until recently and I could have written to HMRC in 2015 like you and paid nothing for all unprotected years.

[pimpernell]

Finance Bill 2017-18 V HMRC DR Settlement Terms

So you took HMRC at their word?

There's only one winner in this game of chess.

Yeah. Brown owl. Except with me the games over. They told me not to be a naughty boy anymore, took my money, and then walked away, never to be seen again. I’m glad because as well as being adept at chess they were scary f@@kers with a keen interest in baseball bats. Lessons learned on my part, poorer but wiser.

My time on these boards are over you’ll be glad to know. Its all yours. I think you’re a complete t@sser but good luck anyway.

[ConfusedEasily]

Mine are based on what HMRC have told me without expensive advice from a tax consultant. It’s good enough for me, and would be good enough in court if it came down to it, backed as it is by a legally binding agreement ( oops there I go again).

Calm down. Sheesh.
Our lawyer doesn't think the wording of the agreements, cover letters, emails etc. would stand up in a court of law against the 2019 loan charge for closed years. You disagree. Luckily we have the courts to sort that out.

You got one view - we have another. No surprise there.
HMRC are not being inconsistent. No surprise there.
The legislation may impact arrangements for closed years. No surprise there.
It's a mess. No surprise there.

If you're happy with your position then why not let it drop and leave the rest of us to slew around in the mire.

[ConfusedEasily]

There's a lot of FUD on these forums.
The reality is that the position is not clear. Ladypenelope has an agreement which states the actual closed years on the settlement agreement. By year. This is not the case with all the agreements. They are not consistent.

If HMRC is giving guarantees that years are exempt after CLSO1 then please post that here, because it'll give others an opportunity to go back to HMRC and insist that they should be exempt from the 2019 charge.

[LadyPenelope]

My loans have been written off already so I will have to pay IHT? I didn't know about the 2019 charge in 2015 as I only heard about it recently. How am I supposed to keep up with all this information. I never knew any of this until recently and I could have written to HMRC in 2015 like you and paid nothing for all unprotected years.

Yes, it is dreadful, but once you write off the loans you are liable for IHT, which is why some people are choosing not to write them off. I spoke to the person who issued me an APN after I'd settled, because they lost my payment in their systems for a few months. who gave me the IHT address to contact, think I can dig it out if you like? I kept all the docs for obvious reasons.

Here it is in case you want to contact them:

HM Revenue & Customs
Inheritance Tax
Trusts & Pensions (ITTP)
PO BOX 175
Bootle
L30 4TX

[pimpernell]

Calm down. Sheesh.
Our lawyer doesn't think the wording of the agreements, cover letters, emails etc. would stand up in a court of law against the 2019 loan charge for closed years. You disagree. Luckily we have the courts to sort that out.

You got one view - we have another. No surprise there.
HMRC are not being inconsistent. No surprise there.
The legislation may impact arrangements for closed years. No surprise there.
It's a mess. No surprise there.

If you're happy with your position then why not let it drop and leave the rest of us to slew around in the mire.

Sure. I’m surprised at myself that I’m still interested. I can’t ever see HMRC legislating against themselves but I’m sure your lawyer would love to take your fees. I always thought lawyers (presumably a tax lawyer) might be useful to understand your position with respect to an arrangement and tax position but not to question the legality of a legally binding agreement issued by HMRC. As webberg said they may have made a mistake with closed years in clso1 but as I’m pointing out even in 2017 they’ve not recognised it as such because legally they can’t revisit clso1 settlements by their own admission.

I’m gone.

[BrilloPad]

I’m sure your lawyer would love to take your fees.

If only there were any lawyers who cared about anything other than money. And judges seem happy to keep the legal gravy boat going too.

[pimpernell]

If only there were any lawyers who cared about anything other than money. And judges seem happy to keep the legal gravy boat going too.

Spot on. I think you always have to ask yourself what someone’s motive is or might be.

[ConfusedEasily]

Strangely, we received a quote from our Lawyer. He gave us his opinion, looked at two settlement agreements, considered our individual cases, spoke to HMRC, consulted with colleagues...
... and then....
presented us with a bill. The bill was only 30% of the quote.

He will not do any more proactive work as he doesn't think that it will be of any use at the moment. We need to wait and see how HMRC proceed
He didn't tell us what we wanted to hear, would not take on, or even recommend, trying to defend the settlement agreements against the 2019 charge at the moment.

So yes - all Lawyers and Accountants are bastards, but in this case, we got what we paid for. In all of this, all of the promoters, scheme providers, accountants, contributors to this forum - this guy is the only one who played it straight.