UKIP Vs Good Old fashioned self interest

[DodgyAgent]

Problem with UKIP is simple, dilution of the conservative vote means more likelihood of the red pox getting back in by default.
Same will and is happening to UKIP as happened to the Green party. Major parties saw the way the wind was blowing and offered diluted versions of the Green policies alongside their mainstream policies and they were squeezed out of relevance.
Conservatives are already doing this but might take another election cycle to finish off.

A proper point at last.

[Mich the Tester]

You don't live on the council estates where immigrants live. You only see the UKIP problem when some Romanian tries to sell you a big issue and maybe obstructing your path into Peter Jones. If you just said "look , I am making a nice pile out of this EU thing - we only have one life I do not give a sh*t about how it affects everyone else... screw UKIP" then we ,ight have some respect for the argument.

How do you know where we've all lived? For your information when I came to NL and lived with my girlfriend we lived on a council estate with all the social problems of any other council estate and then worked our butts off to get somewhere better.

Anyway, stop avoiding the question; are you calling 'the right of self determination, freedom from the collective environments and freedom of movement of labour' a 'privileged entitlement'?

[DodgyAgent]

There is an assumption that if the UK left the EU it would trade it would keep exporting it's stuff. That probably isn't the case. If the UK did leave the EU it would have to export according to the rules that exist now. That would mean Japanese and Korean car manufacturers in the UK for example couldn't continue their model of building some of it Japan, some of it in the UK and exporting into the EU, as current rules would mean a 10% tariff, which would probably force the hand of the Japs and Koreans and they'd move their plants. Of course some might argue the EU would be forced to change the rule to suit the UK, but that means agreement from 26 different countries any one of whom could throw in a veto and scupper the entire deal, by the time has a deal it wants the manufacturers would be long gone.

I've chosen that as an example but there are many others as well. Finance is another a fair chunk of business would just simply move to Paris or Frankfurt to avoid having to deal with two different Financial Authorities. At the moment a German company can do a deal in London and doesn't have to think about it.

Scotland would almost certainly leave England but stay in the EU, and I suspect provide a convenient location for some manufacturers in the North East.

In the end the UK would end up like it was in the early 1970's with a moribund industry a falling pound and sh*te football team that never gets to the World cup.

You seem to ignore what a huge market the UK is for EU countries to sell to. Whilst your scaremongering is well argued it lacks balance and I completely disagree with the conclusion you make. First of all what makes you think Scotland will be allowed into the EU? or even that the Scots would want to join? If the UK left the EU then like Switzerland and Norway it would negotiate its own trade agreements with the EU. The EU may be full of self serving bureaucrats but it needs the UK as a trading partner just as much as the UK needs it. You are making misleading assumptions about consequences without any historical or other factual evidence to support them.

[Mich the Tester]

You seem to ignore what a huge market the UK is for EU countries to sell to. Whilst your scaremongering is well argued it lacks balance and I completely disagree with the conclusion you make. First of all what makes you think Scotland will be allowed into the EU? or even that the Scots would want to join? If the UK left the EU then like Switzerland and Norway it would negotiate its own trade agreements with the EU. The EU may be full of self serving bureaucrats but it needs the UK as a trading partner just as much as the UK needs it. You are making misleading assumptions about consequences without any historical or other factual evidence to support them.

Time to come clean; are you calling 'the right of self determination, freedom from the collective environments and freedom of movement of labour' a 'privileged entitlement'?

[DodgyAgent]

How do you know where we've all lived? For your information when I came to NL and lived with my girlfriend we lived on a council estate with all the social problems of any other council estate and then worked our butts off to get somewhere better.

Anyway, stop avoiding the question; are you calling 'the right of self determination, freedom from the collective environments and freedom of movement of labour' a 'privileged entitlement'?

I am suggesting that this is how you see your freedom of self determination and freedom to work where you want as your own "privileged entitlement"

[Mich the Tester]

I am suggesting that this is how you see your freedom of self determination and freedom to work where you want as your own "privileged entitlement"

Forget how I see it, the question's about how you see it.

On the evidence of your words up to now, it seems you do indeed see 'the right of self determination, freedom from the collective environments and freedom of movement of labour' as a 'privileged entitlement'.

You also apparently see a free market in which small businesses compete for trade as a 'gravy train'.

[doodab]

You don't live on the council estates where immigrants live. You only see the UKIP problem when some Romanian tries to sell you a big issue and maybe obstructing your path into Peter Jones. If you just said "look , I am making a nice pile out of this EU thing - we only have one life I do not give a sh*t about how it affects everyone else... screw UKIP" then we ,ight have some respect for the argument.

I grew up on one actually. I started working on the market at the age of 14, sometimes contributing money to the household budget to put food on the table, and by the time I was 23 I'd been a bin man, sorted mail bags and spent couple of years working in factories experiencing various shades of mind numbing tedium, all for <£3 an hour in the days before the days before minimum wage. I've seized my opportunities and worked hard my whole life to make sure I escaped from that background and my kids will never experience it and while I don't agree with everything it does I see the EU as something that has helped me to do so.

The person prattling from a position of privilege (public school education etc) here is you.

[Mich the Tester]

I grew up on one actually. I started working on the market at the age of 14, sometimes contributing money to the household budget to put food on the table, and by the time I was 23 I'd been a bin man, sorted mail bags and spent couple of years working in factories experiencing various shades of mind numbing tedium, all for <£3 an hour in the days before the days before minimum wage. I've seized my opportunities and worked hard my whole life to make sure I escaped from that background and my kids will never experience it and while I don't agree with everything it does I see the EU as something that has helped me to do so.

The person prattling from a position of privilege (public school education etc) here is you.

Actually I think that what DA's done in his original post is exactly what agents do when they put together contract advert; copy and paste some high falluting words from a (possibly) more worthwhile commentator and then string them together in any old order as if they're so impressive they'll actually form an argument of their own volition.

Let have a look at it again and count the non-sequiturs;

The bile and hatred (as opposed to reasoned argument) poured onto Nigel Farage (I don't hate Nigel Farage, I simply disagree with him) and the smearing of him and his party UKIP by IT contractors is at odds with the conservative ideology that underpins their philosophy. (the conservative philosophy that promotes free competition and freedom from colletive environments as a natural right, and not a privilege) UKIP essentially are a party of the right that seeks to return power and responsibility to the individual and dismantle the large undemocratic EU. It has little truck with the collective empires embodied in big business and big government. (although it does support free movement of capital without allowing workers to follow that capital and offer their labour on a free market)

IT contractors like the fact that they are individuals, enjoying the right ( ah, here it's a right!) of self determination, freedom from the collective environments of permiedom. So why when these two groups seem to have so much in common do they loathe the presence of UKIP? (No I don't; they have as much right to their opinions and presence as anyone else)

It is simple really. IT contractors are part of the wealthy elite of Europe. They earn vast amounts of money whilst paying little tax (Bollox) (compared to permie people). Freedom of movement of labour has broadened their market enormously, (Yes, I remember when markets were a conservative idea) doubly so by virtue of the fact that everyone speaks English. The EU has broken down the forces of Nationalism and forced every citizen of Europe to learn English .

The British contractor's EU market is literally its Oyster. Unfortunately they look at UKIP as a threat to this privileged entitlement (and now the 'right' has become a ' privileged entitlement' !). So much do they want to cling on to their gravy train (suddenly a 'broadened market' is a 'gravy train) they don't bother with the argument of what UKIP is saying instead they see it through their own prism of self interest.

[stek]

Aren't there special ties with India left over from the old empire days? I'm not sure where i'm remembering this from so perhaps there isn't. I just though that it was relatively easy for indians to work here compared to other nationalities.

Nope they are no different to any other visa-nationals, just historically it's been a natural path for them.

[DodgyAgent]

Forget how I see it, the question's about how you see it.

On the evidence of your words up to now, it seems you do indeed see 'the right of self determination, freedom from the collective environments and freedom of movement of labour' as a 'privileged entitlement'.

You also apparently see a free market in which small businesses compete for trade as a 'gravy train'.

OK I see that you are trying to shift the argument. I believe in the concept of self determination and personal responsibility I believe it is my right to make my own decisions and do what I like but I also accept the collective rules and laws we make. Obviously my use of a metaphor to make my point is beyond you.