Taxation is theft

[speling bee]

It's a thread not related to UKIP

All threads are related to UKIP.

[Sysman]

I'm given to understand that in those far off days, well beyond recall, rich bastards were up to stuff like renting their business suits & such like, possibly because of tax relief on such payments.

I didn't hear about the suits but there were expensive holidays and "special" pension funds in there. Trust funds for education and even houses.

If you watch old Saint* episodes you'll notice how often tax free money gets a mention, and you'll also note that a surprising number of episodes were filmed abroad. If you spent 30 days abroad in a tax year you then qualified for tax free status for further days abroad. This was a very nice perk which even truck drivers could take advantage of. British forces overseas didn't pay tax either; presumably the diplomatic service fell under a similar ruling.

* Randall and Hopkirk (Deceased) took a very different tone and tax dodging was very much frowned on. I didn't realise the programme was so full of propaganda when it first showed.

The really sad thing is that it gave the beancounters too much of an upper hand, and that was never going to be a good thing.

[NotAllThere]

...So, again to be clear, you hold that the definition of theft, murder, etc is dependant on the subjective opinion of whoever holds the most guns?

It is not the definition I hold but it is, in practice, the definition from the world in which we live, as imposed by the people with the most guns.

So if the United States invaded and forcefully had sex with and then killed every woman in the UK, by your definition, there would have been no rape or murder?

By the definition I presented, which I believe (as noted) is that one that in practice is how the world works, then yes, of course.

Now, if you have any actual desire to inform yourself on these matters, which I doubt since you are, as I've said before, a bit silly, you might like to buy a copy of New Scientist and consider this article, which is quite appropriate to the discussion. Sign in to read: What's war good for? It's made a more peaceful world - opinion - 23 April 2014 - New Scientist

[NotAllThere]

Indeed. What a very practical chap you are! Most rare among CUKers. Although, if you exclude any notion of what is moral or right or even best for society as more sensible people would define it, then anything that works or that one can get away with, including tax evasion, is equally valid.

With moral relativism how could it be otherwise?

[NotAllThere]

...A deeper meaning to me is that although tax is legal, and you should pay it, there is in turn no ethics attached to it; hence I don't see any issue with legal (stress the legal) tax avoidance...

Indeed. A system of government could be possible with no taxation, yet still be able to maintain adequate service provision for people regardless of their income.

[SpontaneousOrder]

It is not the definition I hold but...

...By the definition I presented, which I believe (as noted) is that one that in practice is how the world works, then yes, of course.

Cool, so you agree with me then - It's your opinion that I'm interested in. Not what some piece of paper called "the law of some such land" says.
Killing outside the remit of self-defence is murder, forcing sex without consent is rape, and taking from someone by force is theft.

Taxation is taking money from me by force, regardless of what is 'offered' in return. Therefore taxation, as opposed to voluntary trade, is theft.

We got there in the end! It's funny how one has to get some people to answer enough questions until they come around to the inescapable truth - even though they persist in not admitting it to themselves directly.

[d000hg]

If that is the case, then all that happens is that the question regresses a level - if the definition of theft or murder depends on the law, then where does the law come from? My law considerers theft to be theft under all circumstances, i.e. taking what isn't yours by force is theft.

So when you say that taxation is legal... says who? It's illegal. it always has been and always will be.

You don't have any laws, just opinions.

Also, are you suggesting moral absolutism i.e. some fundamental external definition of right or wrong? I didn't have you down as the religious type.

[speling bee]

Taxation is taking money from me by force, regardless of what is 'offered' in return. Therefore taxation, as opposed to voluntary trade, is theft.

Is deducting tax from employees at source taking by force?
Is forcibly enforcing a debt theft?

[d000hg]

Is deducting tax from employees at source taking by force?
Is forcibly enforcing a debt theft?

Don't start him off on this, it's his favourite topic. Do a forum search of his posts.

[speling bee]

Don't start him off on this, it's his favourite topic. Do a forum search of his posts.

Don't worry, it's just Randian objectivist nonsense.

SO and ZL are the new CUK 6th form debating society. The thread on God was an interesting insight into this.