Love Britain: vote UKIP or BNP?

[mos]

UKIP and others target EU immigration because the UK currently has no control over it. The rest of the world we can do something about already.

Eu immigration is only 20% of official total. You do not know the size of illegal immigration and how the measures taken to curb official immigration impacted the flow of illegals. Media obsession with Polish minority is just a decoy.

[xoggoth]

Has he ever been to the south of Spain, I suspect that the Spanish feel the same way

That may be well be so, but your implication that large scale migration creates tensions wherever it may happen and whoever is involved, is surely an argument against it, not for it.

[doodab]

Eu immigration is only 20% of official total. You do not know the size of illegal immigration and how the measures taken to curb official immigration impacted the flow of illegals. Media obsession with Polish minority is just a decoy.

According to the latest figures 532,000 people came to Britain last year, 244,000 from outside the EU and 209,000 from within it. That's not 20%, it's almost 50%.

You also have to look why people come here (half of all non-EU migrants are students, whereas only around 20% of EU migrants are) and if they go home. When you factor that in, we have a net inflow of 130,000 EU citizens a year.

[Zero Liability]

UKiP targets Polish mothers and children because Brits are apparently bothered by their very existence, while BNP (which I despise, btw) coincidentally targeted Muslim gangs grooming and prostituting British children. If that is the road of sanity, I prefer to stay insane.

No sale!

I don't even know what you're referring to by "targets". The fact of the matter is that UKIP's and the BNP's proposed approaches are very different, so to call UKIP "more right wing" than the BNP - with the term "right wing" being left suitably undefined, of course - is to put it mildly, disingenuous in the extreme. I guess the caveat "in some ways" was left in Kaiser's post but again, which?

Those of us who detest what the BNP stands for need to remember that far-right views are promoted well outside the BNP’s own membership – in UKIP, on the right of the Tory Party, in the pages of the Daily Mail.

Which simply implies the BNP is trying to pass itself off as more mainstream than it did before. There's very few of the UKIP policies you listed that I see as particularly objectionable, particularly the move to reduce taxes, whether this helps the "rich" or not. I think all taxation could be reduced, by a lot, as could most govt spending. Can't say I agree with a bid to increase military spending, but they are opposed to pointless escapades abroad, so I assume the focus is on the defence side of the defence budget... The BNP is not out of tune with the other three parties when it comes to its economic policies, either, except that it is probably the only one that has much love for protectionism. I don't know, perhaps Labour does as well. I am sure many in Labour do. So what? What does it even mean that UKIP is more "right wing" than the BNP? In what sense? Economics? Sure, it is. I think the actual implication was that it is closer to fascism, which would just indicate how shockingly lacking in perspective this entire debate is.

I think you've got a point that although the BNP is reviled, it shares its policies with the other parties. However, those policies may be sensible in isolation; it's what the party stands for that many seem to detest. I think it has been watered down, especially compared to groups like the EDL, but that's just a natural consequence of electoral competition.

[mos]

I don't even know what you're referring to by "targets". The fact of the matter is that UKIP's and the BNP's proposed approaches are very different, so to call UKIP "more right wing" than the BNP - with the term "right wing" being left suitably undefined, of course - is to put it mildly, disingenuous in the extreme.

When did I call UKiP "more right wing" than BNP?

Both these parties are essentially despicable, but I must admit that some followers of UKiP are not as vile as the core and the majority are very decent folks who joined UKiP for the lack of viable alternative and because political broadcasts sponsored by BBC since 2012 seemed to offer hope.

On the lighter note - someone pointed out that the initials of Farage are the acronym of National Front.

[Zero Liability]

I know you didn't. I was referring more to Kaiser's statement. Can't agree that UKIP is despicable, or at least any more so than the other 3 parties. Certainly nowhere near as bad as the BNP. As you say, it's a problem of a lack of alternatives, but I'm not opposed to their idea to curtail immigration and introduce work permits, given Britain's generous welfare provisions. I kind of agree that their focus on Eastern Europeans is unfortunate as, barring groups like the Roma, they tend to integrate pretty well and are very hard working, in my experience. I don't think they're trying to vilify Eastern Euros though, so much as point out that they come from very poor countries, and England looks like a pretty good deal by comparison.

[mos]

I don't think they're trying to vilify Eastern Euros though, so much as point out that they come from very poor countries, and England looks like a pretty good deal by comparison.

WHAT???? Have you ever been to India, Pakistan, Bangladesh or other popular sources of non EU migrants? Repetition of this cheap mantra is nothing more but the common trick intended to degrade us socially and economically in the eyes of the public and to anchor us as unskilled cheap day labourers. It has nothing to do with reality. It only benefits immigrants from Subcontinent who continue to occupy best jobs while we are pushed into broom closet.

[Zero Liability]

It doesn't matter that they're not as poor as India etc., the differential still exists, thus there is the understandable impetus to immigrate here. I have no problem at all with this process when it is driven by market forces. The problem is largely on the government's end, as besides providing a big subsidy to employers by covering all the welfare etc. costs of those workers who may later fail to find work or require additional support (not saying this generally is the case for Eastern Euros), it is inept at managing the public services it provides.

The way it taxes is also ill fit for purpose. This post by Xoggoth is an apt summary of the problems it creates. However, none of this mitigates the strain of immigration on the system. You really shouldn't take this as a slight against Eastern Europeans in general, or even those who do migrate here specifically. I don't blame them. I get along very well with Eastern Euros in general, and would not pigeonhole them in the way you described. I myself migrated here, yet I would not expect the English to abdicate the right to ask of me to evidence that I am financially self-sufficient in order to do so. So I am in favour of work permits until the government does something to reform the way it provides public services, the amount it spends (downwards) and the amount it taxes (downwards, less gradations due to inept attempts at social engineering and micro-management.) Both Australia and NZ have a system like this in place, and I think it's very fair. NZ has a much less barmy tax system than here, too.

[doodab]

It only benefits immigrants from Subcontinent who continue to occupy best jobs while we are pushed into broom closet.

That's rubbish IMO. Perhaps you personally are struggling to get the best jobs but in my market niche I know of plenty of eastern European contractors who command the same day rates as anyone else. I've met plenty of British Indian contractors as well, but I've never met one who's actually from the subcontinent, only cheap but mostly useless bum on seat "resources" supplied by outsourcers.

In the wider IT market I'd say eastern Europeans are well represented. If there are less of them here than you might expect then it's probably because they have no problem finding work in Germany or Switzerland. That was certainly the case when I was in Germany.

[mos]

That's rubbish IMO. Perhaps you personally are struggling to get the best jobs but in my market niche I know of plenty of eastern European contractors who command the same day rates as anyone else.

That was the case up until 2012 but it has changed.
I blame BBC sponsored anti Polish campaigns featuring stars like Farage, Nuttal, Dimbleby, Neil, Marr and Robinson. They anchor us as very poor, low skilled, willing to do the jobs nobody else wants for pennies. They take every opportunity to say something to that effect until everyone accepts it as self evident.