Does she have a point?

[mos]

@mos you obviously haven't been here long enough and live in a completely White area. No Indian/Pakistani would get away with saying they are Greek or Portuguese. Apart from the differences in appearance there is a massive cultural difference between those Europeans and those Asians.

Indians and Pakistanis are EVERYWHERE in high density, perhaps except for Cornwall! I find your suggestion quite amusing. After I saw on BBC how they are faking certifications in the UK, even the least likely and audacious scenarios seem very real possibility.

I am convinced that 'Bulgarians and Romanians' featured on English TV more often than not are Indian/Pakistani. It is also the case with Russians persistently passed off as Polish.

[Mich the Tester]

Writing people off as old and grumpy is all very well. What you do not seem to appreciate is that the older generations have a first hand experience of post war poverty. They have seen the aftermath of the effects of tyranny (even if many were only born shortly after the second world war). Their skepticism of the EU is entirely reasonable and for what its worth this generation have considerable power and wealth so their point of view is very relevant.

There are actually very very few people in Britain who've experienced tyranny at first hand; a small number of survivors from the war who are in their 80s and 90s and risked their lives in a fight against tyranny; some oppose the EU, some don't. The others who've experienced it first hand are immigrants who came to Britain to get away from tyrants; I don't see them protesting against tyranny and I can't imagine many immigrants voting for UKIP. The countries in Europe where people are most supportive of the EU are actually those that have only very recently escaped from the tyranny of of what was effectively occupation by the USSR, plus Spain and Portugal where fascist dictators were thrown out in the 60s/70s. None of those countries have huge campaigns to leave the EU.

As for the 'baby boom' generation having considerable power and wealth, yes you're right they have; they're also getting old and more and more are dying, leaving their considerable wealth and power to younger generations; and that's my original rather cold quantitative point, to which you give an emotional response. The demographics are shifting toward less voting power for the anti-EU campaign, and by the time the referendum is held, after Mr Cameron has completed negotiations, chiefly with Mrs Merkel, who is very open to negotiate, the picture is going to look very different unless Mr Farage et al can make their campaign appeal to younger people. It's only going to take a small shift in the demographics to make their campaign fail. Demographic developments are a much more powerful electoral and economic force than political rhetoric, even if you don't like that.

Now, what to do with this? Well, I agree with you that the EU should be primarily about a free market and not some superstate but I don't think the campaign to leave it will succeed, so the practical answer is to negotiate and build alliances with the countries that want something similar.

[Sysman]

@mos you obviously haven't been here long enough and live in a completely White area. No Indian/Pakistani would get away with saying they are Greek or Portuguese.

They can if they migrated to one of those countries first and went through the naturalisation process there. If they did they'll have proper EU passports so can move to the UK if they wish.

Apart from the differences in appearance there is a massive cultural difference between those Europeans and those Asians.

True and that might be the reason they want to move to the UK.

[DodgyAgent]

You need to take another look at your dates. The people born after WW2 started down low economically but experienced nearly 65 years of economic growth, with very few breaks in between. Their parents, most of whom are in their 90s or dead already, experienced the real post war poverty. And that's what I'm saying; whether UKIP are right or wrong is irrelevant; they're old and they're dying. Mr Farage's biggest battle is not against Mr Cameron, Mr Clegg or Mr Miliband; it's against demographics, and he's going to lose that battle. It will only take a very minor shift in the next 5 or 6 years in the average age of voters and the anti-EU brigade will lose the referendum and that shift is happening now. Better to accept that and reform from within.

We all die! How do you reform something from within when you are part of a minority? This reform within thing is a cliche, perhaps you might like to explain how it works. The EU institutions are self serving gravy trains. I cannot see what on earth can be done to reform something that has no democratic accountability and no pressing need for change. Like all other monolithic institutions they will only reform through revolution or out of sheer necessity.

Yes businesses reform but that is because they have people who are able to look clearly at the future and assess moods and swings in the markets. these companies are also subject to market driven rules.

Ukraine, the Soviet Union and the Syrian government are all examples of institutions that have needed reform. examples of this are everywhere. the Greek government needs to implement reforms and may only be doing so out of sheer hardship.

There is no will to reform the EU. it is a growing behemoth that only seeks to empower itself. It needs the kick of a leading member state to leave it to keep it honest.

[doodab]

There is no will to reform the EU. it is a growing behemoth that only seeks to empower itself. It needs the kick of a leading member state to leave it to keep it honest.

There clearly *is* a will to reform the EU, it may even become sufficiently powerful for something to be done.

[doodab]

We all die! How do you reform something from within when you are part of a minority? This reform within thing is a cliche, perhaps you might like to explain how it works. The EU institutions are self serving gravy trains. I cannot see what on earth can be done to reform something that has no democratic accountability and no pressing need for change. Like all other monolithic institutions they will only reform through revolution or out of sheer necessity.

Surely kowtowing to the will of a minority is the exact opposite of being democratically accountable?

[DodgyAgent]

There clearly *is* a will to reform the EU, it may even become sufficiently powerful for something to be done.

There probably is, but because each member state has a different idea of what that reform should be nothing is done. Politicians in member states do not want to upset them for fear of losing a nice job opportunity for when they leave politics.

At least in the UK we have a press that constantly scrutinises the activities of politicians and we have a democratic electoral system that has the power to change government. Not so with the EU.

[doodab]

At least in the UK we have a press that constantly scrutinises the activities of politicians and we have a democratic electoral system that has the power to change government. Not so with the EU.

I disagree. The EU doesn't change rapidly because people across Europe vote for roughly the same blend of MEPs. You aren't going to see radical change unless there is a radical change in the views of the European electorate and that seems unlikely. Gradual change can and does happen.

[Mich the Tester]

There is no will to reform the EU. it is a growing behemoth that only seeks to empower itself. It needs the kick of a leading member state to leave it to keep it honest.

Statement 1; patently incorrect, there is a stronger and stronger call from especially major northern European political parties and governments for very serious EU reforms. CMD is slowly building a coalition including Germany the Netherlands, Denmark and others who don't agree on all the details but do agree in principle that the EU should be primarily about free markets AND that individual countries need more freedom to tackle immigration problems. Now those countries might be in a majority, but they form the real economic and geopolitical power in Europe.

Statement 2; that's why there's a will to reform it

Statement 3; it's getting a kick right now from two huge economies like Britain and Germany and a few smaller but rich economies like Denmark and NL, all of whom have powerful domestic political movements demanding change, plus a big, fast growing and ambitious economy like Poland where people want economic freedom and have a painfully fresh memory of totalitarianism (many do in Germany too).

[DodgyAgent]

Statement 1; patently incorrect, there is a stronger and stronger call from especially major northern European political parties and governments for very serious EU reforms. CMD is slowly building a coalition including Germany the Netherlands, Denmark and others who don't agree on all the details but do agree in principle that the EU should be primarily about free markets AND that individual countries need more freedom to tackle immigration problems. Now those countries might be in a majority, but they form the real economic and geopolitical power in Europe.

Statement 2; that's why there's a will to reform it

Statement 3; it's getting a kick right now from two huge economies like Britain and Germany and a few smaller but rich economies like Denmark and NL, all of whom have powerful domestic political movements demanding change, plus a big, fast growing and ambitious economy like Poland where people want economic freedom and have a painfully fresh memory of totalitarianism (many do in Germany too).

Evidence please