Labour's smoking ban killed the British pub

[Gittins Gal]

Yes.

And like a politician, you proclaim that you won't patronise the people because they're able to make their own minds up. Politicians know they aren't, but also know that they like being told that they are! (does that make sense?)

Ok - as time moves on (and I'm sure anyone over a certain age will notice this) people of a certain demographic have become more and more infantilised and thus dependent on the state. I mean, just look around you and think back to, say, 30 odd years ago (or longer, if you're old enough!).

Now I don't want to get into a debate about whether or not this is by design but clearly forces are at work that have brought this about. In my opinion, this should not be the case - I believe we should live in a world where people are encouraged to think for themselves and live with the consequences of their own actions.

[Platypus]

I believe we should live in a world where people are encouraged to think for themselves and live with the consequences of their own actions.

Indeed I agree, although I fear that politicians prefer to govern helpless sheep as they're more biddable.

[hyperD]

Ok - as time moves on (and I'm sure anyone over a certain age will notice this) people of a certain demographic have become more and more infantilised and thus dependent on the state. I mean, just look around you and think back to, say, 30 odd years ago (or longer, if you're old enough!).

Now I don't want to get into a debate about whether or not this is by design but clearly forces are at work that have brought this about. In my opinion, this should not be the case - I believe we should live in a world where people are encouraged to think for themselves and live with the consequences of their own actions.

You can see this in action right now: the number of people at a pedestrian crossings simply gawping at the light hoping the big green man god of walking flashes his approval so that they may pass in safety from the nasty vehicles, when in fact the road has been clear for several minutes.

I've walked across main roads when the light has been red and clear and the number of people who simply stand there and stare at you. I've half expected Donald Sutherland to come running out pointing at me making a strange noise...

[xoggoth]

Yet again I note that it is the "rightie" in all this argument who does not display a degree of contempt for ordinary people.

Assuming that those with intelligence and education should make all the decisions in society is a mistake we have been making for too long. As some of the fact-free stuff we read on CUK indicates, intelligence and education do not make for good judgment and the intelligent and educated are just as likely to think emotionally, ignore facts or make selective use of them as anyone else. Entire nations have been wrecked and millions have died because of intelligent leaders in pursuit of their unrealistic ideals.

The UK would work a damn site better if we took more account of the feelings of the majority. Policies that are more in line with normal human needs are more likely to work.

[Gittins Gal]

You can see this in action right now: the number of people at a pedestrian crossings simply gawping at the light hoping the big green man god of walking flashes his approval so that they may pass in safety from the nasty vehicles, when in fact the road has been clear for several minutes.

I've walked across main roads when the light has been red and clear and the number of people who simply stand there and stare at you. I've half expected Donald Sutherland to come running out pointing at me making a strange noise...

Or in a hospital casualty department. I has in the local A & E the other day and it was like being in a nest of fledgling birds - all of them crying out for attention, completely helpless.


(incidentally, I'm surprised jaywalking isn't an offence here. In the States it seems to be a kind of gateway misdemeanour leading to a life of incarceration. You always hear of people (normally black) who were originally in on a jaywalking ticket and are still inside 10 years on... Just think of the possibilities!)

[d000hg]

Are smokers more of a drain on the NHS or state generally? It would seem ( although the source is a pro-smoking group) they pay about 4bn more in taxes on fags than they cost the NHS.

It depends if you measure everything purely in monetary terms. The argument that if we were healthy would lose jobs in the NHS isn't a good one really, the NHS shouldn't be there to make money or provide employment.

Again, another dreadfully patronising viewpoint.

So, we have to create these blanket laws that affect everyone to protect people in lowly positions because they are too simple to take those decisions for themselves?

It's not patronising, it's realistic.

Why should the minority be privileged at the cost of the majority? The simple fact is that the masses are NOT well educated. Living a middle-class life you tend to mix with similar people and they are also well educated. It is something of a shock how far us lot are above the average folk in terms of education, wealth, etc. That's not elitism it's simple fact.

The government would ideally treat people as individuals but that's impossible so they have to play to the majority. I'd rather the majority are protected, who need to be - from health hazards, exploitation at work, etc - even if it puts a crimp in my style to live in luxury.

[d000hg]

You can see this in action right now: the number of people at a pedestrian crossings simply gawping at the light hoping the big green man god of walking flashes his approval so that they may pass in safety from the nasty vehicles, when in fact the road has been clear for several minutes.

If you are driving a car and the lights are red but it's clear nobody is coming, would you do the same? I always want to

[Gittins Gal]

It's not patronising, it's realistic.

Why should the minority be privileged at the cost of the majority? The simple fact is that the masses are NOT well educated. Living a middle-class life you tend to mix with similar people and they are also well educated. It is something of a shock how far us lot are above the average folk in terms of education, wealth, etc. That's not elitism it's simple fact.

The government would ideally treat people as individuals but that's impossible so they have to play to the majority. I'd rather the majority are protected, who need to be - from health hazards, exploitation at work, etc - even if it puts a crimp in my style to live in luxury.

Yes, middle class people are more likely to be better educated in an intellectual sense but I can't accept that "the masses" are so THICK that they can't be trusted to use their own judgement in mundane matters such as whether or not to enter a smokey pub.

[Sysman]

Aren't private clubs exempt? For instance private members clubs such as cigar clubs?

Nope. They banned that idea at the outset.

[d000hg]

Yes, middle class people are more likely to be better educated in the sense that they are more intellectual but I can't accept that "the masses" are so THICK that they can't be trusted to use their own judgement in mundane matters such as whether or not to enter a smokey pub.

Yet again you twist the discussion to try and take the position of reasonableness:

• When we talked about fat people on planes, you wanted to bang on about it possibly being due to medical issues, which is statistically unusual
• When we were talking about people so fat they couldn't fit in a seat you twisted it to how we were claiming "overweight is bad", equating this life-threateningly obese minority with the average bloke with a spare tyre
• Now we're talking about people choosing to work 8 hour shifts in a smoke-filled room and you're twisting it to be about people "choosing to enter a smokey pub"

You're also deliberately putting derogatory words in my mouth, that I'm calling people "thick". It's all very transparent.

But if you must, then to see how 'thick' the average person is (they're not thick, just normal people) just look at how many people still smoke, and take up smoking, when there is no medical doubt how bad it is for you.

And it's not only about being thick as I already said - if you need a job badly and one comes up, what father wouldn't risk their own well-being to keep their children fed?