Benefits for immigrants from the EU

[wonderboy]

People from Eastern Europe are not subject to the agreement we're discussing. Wonderboy is up in arms because he has found out about an agreement that his been around since the common market, but wasn't extended to the new Eastern European countries.

Any foreigner in the UK has entitlement to benefits after he has worked for a certain time, but that has always been the case. There has never been a time where someone has been refused benefits after paying NI.

Similar rules applie in all OECD countries including USA, Australia and New Zealand.

I am not up in arms. I am trying to understand 1. if the situation is as reported (i.e. people from almost? any part of the EU in 2014 can turn up on spec and get full benefits from the UK government) and 2. If so, what is the rationale. I am making no claims either way about whether it is a good or a bad thing. I am asking what is the rationale?

So far I have had "to enable movement of skilled workers" - but as I previously described, this does not make logical sense to me because skilled workers usually have little problem of movement anyway - and benefits are of little interest to skilled workers regardless (because by definition they are skilled and employable). I have also had "so immigrants do not need to fly home should they lose their job", but again, this makes little logical sense because flights around the EU are in the tens of pounds and you do not need to be in your target country to correspond, conduct interviews etc.

You claim that reciprocal benefits was not extended to Eastern European countries. OK great, so this means that in 2014 Romanians will not be able to turn up on spec and demand benefits? I am making no case either way, I want to know the facts. I am specifically talking about people from EU member states.

[AtW]

skilled workers usually have little problem of movement anyway - and benefits are of little interest to skilled workers regardless

Perhaps you should try to get workpermit sometime and then accept risk of having to leave country in case your employer goes bust or just fires you as your workpermit won't be valid any longer.

[xoggoth]

I am specifically talking about people from EU member states

Yeh, too many migrant threads today, not sure if I've been posting in the right one either!

Anyway, as regards recipricocity take a look at this:

Bulgaria's parliament on Tuesday (22 October) extended a moratorium on arable land purchases by foreign investors until 2020 despite warnings from the European Union that it would result in a review of its accession treaty.
Bulgaria extends land purchase ban despite EU warning | EurActiv

So why are we allowing them access to our benefits when they are barring us from buying their land? Or does the European ideal only work one way?

[AtW]

So why are we allowing them access to our benefits when they are barring us from buying their land? Or does the European ideal only work one way?

It works both ways - those who live in poorer nation states get a chance to make more money elsewhere, and on the other hand those who live in richer states pay less than they'd otherwise had to.

It is a MUCH better option than having jobs outsourced completely to China - that in my view is far bigger issue facing this country.

The only downside is that this does not work well for some sectors such as legal

[wonderboy]

Perhaps you should try to get workpermit sometime and then accept risk of having to leave country in case your employer goes bust or just fires you as your workpermit won't be valid any longer.

This is a straw man because I (or anyone for the purposes of this discussion) don't need a work permit because I am a EU citizen and I have explicitly stated I am only considering the EU here.

If I am in my first year (first two years, three?) in a foreign country then I will always ensure I have enough money in my bank account for a flight/train/car home to a safe place in my place of origin. If my employer goes bust, then I fly home no worries and start looking for another job - any anyway, I am entitled to the normal social security of my home nation.

Should I remain financially self-sufficient in the foreign country for a period of time, demonstrating that I will on average contribute to the nation, then I can expect to be afforded the same rights as natives.

Is this roughly how the EU is set up, or is it as was described at the top of this post whereby anyone can turn up and receive benefits from a taxation pot that they have not contributed to? If so, can anyone give me, or point me at some concrete reasons as to why?

NOTE: I am pro immigration. I am pro using the European continental labour force to improve our national competitiveness. I am specifically talking about extending benefits to migrants immediately.

[AtW]

Is this roughly how the EU is set up, or is it as was described at the top of this post whereby anyone can turn up and receive benefits from a taxation pot that they have not contributed to? If so, can anyone give me, or point me at some concrete reasons as to why?

They are EU citizens also. Before that they ("buffer states") had to endure good 40+ years of Soviet occupation and "take one for the team", it's a small payback to those states who had to deal with Soviet tulip for a few generations.

Now why China should be taking most of UK manufacturing jobs, that's the real question.

[wonderboy]

They are EU citizens also. Before that they ("buffer states") had to endure good 40+ years of Soviet occupation and "take one for the team", it's a small payback to those states who had to deal with Soviet tulip for a few generations.

Now why China should be taking most of UK manufacturing jobs, that's the real question.

Does such universal benevolence to otherwise unrelated nations have any precedent? Do the figures show that there is a surplus of money in the UK's social security to enable the funding of this, if not, will this contribute to national indebtedness? Will we be better or worse equipped to counter negative externalities associated with the rise of China if we are more indebted to them as a nation?

[NotAllThere]

Is it true that immigrants from the EU can claim benefits as soon as they arrive in the country and if so, why? How is it in our country's interest to do so?

It means you can move to any EU country (and Switzerland, due to bilateral treaties) and hunt for work there, while being supported by their benefit system.

[AtW]

Does such universal benevolence to otherwise unrelated nations have any precedent?

At some point NOT having slaves was without precedent.

Will we be better or worse equipped to counter negative externalities associated with the rise of China if we are more indebted to them as a nation?

The only way to deal with China is to gain lower cost of production within EU borders in Eastern Europe (plus disbanding WTO and subsequent import tariffs on imports) - the price for that is that some of them will move to other EU countries, which is fair enough.

Note - that does not mean they should be automatically entitled to benefits in the country where they never paid taxes.

[darmstadt]

So some facts:

- net migration to the UK fell last year by around 25%: BBC News - Annual net migration to UK falls below 200,000 although it seems to have increased in 2013: BBC News - Net migration to UK increases - Office for National Statistics
- The numbers of entry clearance visas issued for the purposes of work, study (excluding student visitors) and family reasons have all continued to fall: Migration Statistics Quarterly Report, November 2012 - ONS
- Newcomers (immigrants) compose about 9% of the population, less than Australia (24%), Germany (13%), the US (12.8%) and France (10%): http://england.shelter.org.uk/__data...nd_housing.pdf
- According to the DWPs own figures, despite being 9% of the UK population, immigrants make up just 6.4% of the 5.5 million people claiming working age benefits in the UK. Therefore the immigrant community is under represented in the field of benefit claims: https://www.gov.uk/government/upload..._nino_regs.pdf
- The EHRC study found that of newly arrived migrants between 2003 and 2009, including those from Poland and other eastern European countries, more than 60% were living in privately rented accommodation, 18% were owner-occupiers, and only 11% had been allocated social housing homes. In terms of the overall proportion of new lettings, out of 170,000 new council or housing association tenants in 2006/07 in England fewer than 5% went to foreign nationals and less than 1% went to east Europeans: The myth of immigrants and social housing | UK news | theguardian.com
- One reason for the widespread misconception that they are, is that the vast majority (90%) of housing allocated to immigrants in the private rented sector tends to be former council homes which have been sold off in ‘had to let’ and run down areas. Their local neighbours may simply assume these properties are still social housing and the immigrants have been granted it
- The majority of immigrants to the UK seeking to claim benefits must go through a Habitual Residency Test: Citizens Advice - Coming from abroad and claiming benefits - the habitual residence test
- If the applicant is classed as destitute (having no accommodation or financial means of finding any without getting a job) they can apply for accommodation in dispersal zones across the UK. There is no such accommodation available in London, and it is dispensed by the UK Border Agency (UKBA): UK Border Agency | Accommodation (this is actually for asylum seekers)
- From next year EU immigrants will lose their entitlement to Job Seekers Allowance after six months unemployment. This might be a good or a bad idea, but either way it will have very little impact. According to the DWPs own figures, just 6.6% of UK immigrants last year were unemployed within 6 months of receiving their National Insurance number. This compares to 16.6% in British nationals: Cameron unveils immigrant benefits crackdown - Channel 4 News
- Romanians in the UK and the Manipulation of Statistics
- Migration Statistics Quarterly Report, August 2013:
* Latest provisional data show that there was a net flow of 176,000 Long-Term migrants to the UK in the year ending December 2012. This is lower than the estimate of 215,000 in the year to December 2011, but it is not a statistically significant fall.
* 497,000 people immigrated to the UK in the year ending December 2012, which is a statistically significant decline from the 566,000 who immigrated during the previous year. This decrease has caused the fall in net migration.
* 321,000 emigrants left the UK in the year ending December 2012, which is a statistically significant decrease from the 351,000 who emigrated during the previous year.
* Net migration has increased in the year ending December 2012 when compared to the year ending September 2012, when it stood at 153,000. This increase suggests the decline seen in net migration on a rolling quarterly basis since the year ending June 2011 has not continued.
* Immigration of New Commonwealth citizens decreased significantly from 151,000 in the year ending December 2011 to 97,000 in the year ending December 2012.
* 180,000 immigrants arrived in the UK for formal study in the year ending December 2012; this is similar to the 179,000 immigrants who arrived in the UK for work related reasons.
* 181,000 people migrated away from the UK for work related reasons in the year ending December 2012, a statistically significant decrease compared to 201,000 people who emigrated for this reason the year previously.
* The number of visas issued, excluding visitor and transit visas, was 501,840 in the year ending June 2013, 4% lower than the previous year (520,073). However, this was slightly up on the year ending March 2013 (499,641).
* In the year ending June 2013, there were 204,469 study visas issued (excluding student visitors), a fall of 5% compared with the previous year.
* Sponsored study visas applications fell 2% in the year ending June 2013. This change was not uniform, with a 4% increase for the university sector and falls of 25%, 16% and 3%, respectively, for further education, English language schools and independent schools.
* 562,000 National Insurance numbers (NINos) were allocated to non-UK nationals in the year to March 2013, a decrease of 6% on the year to March 2012