Bring back John Major

[MicrosoftBob]

The USSR was not socialist. HTH

Who said that ?

[Mich the Tester]

You are entirely missing the point of this debate. It is not about the EU (MTT is broadly pro-, I am anti-). It is about baiting the CUK cretins.

I am not really 'pro EU'. I am in favour of a European free trade, movement and association area, much like the EC/EEC once was, and without the European Commission and European Parliament. I am opposed to Britain leaving the EU as it stands right now because think the EU is the right means to achieve that at the moment. I don't like the idea of a referendum that asks 'in' or 'out' when there are almost infinite alternatives that can be achieved by negotiating from Britain's current position. It´s not a binary decision.

But then I think you're capable of understanding non-binary points of view, unlike some people.

[Mich the Tester]

since when was Macmillan a socialist

I know you are trying desperately to argue the point any way you can but Britain's political system did not allow for Socialism to run its true course. it almost did however when the UK was in the grip of the Trade Unions but thanks to Maggie your friends were kicked out.

He wasn't. That's my point; Churchill, Adenauer and MacMillan were the driving forces behind the European human rights treaty and none of them were socialists.

[Old Greg]

First point; yes, the UK government gives away benefits that it doesn't have to give under EU rules. The EU only stipulates equal access for citizens of member states to contribution based benefits, and even then only after people have paid into the system for some length of time. The UK has been stupid enough to remove the distinction of contribution based and non-contribution based benefits; that was a stupid thing to do and the EU has nothing to do with it. Blame Mr B Liar for that one, or the coalition for failing to change it (as yet).

Secondly, while I agree that socialists tend to like high taxes (although actually the top rate of income tax in China, Vietnam and Cuba is lower than in the UK), what's this about socialists inhibiting industrial activity? What were all those tractor factories about in the USSR? Well OK, yes, the tractors were perhaps so tulip they just got in the way of the farmers, but they made them.

Thirdly, no, there will be no 'regardless of debate'; there will be debate about this and it's only just getting started. Do not expect your ideas about the EU to go unchallenged by others. I don't expect my ideas to go unchallenged either.

The USSR was not socialist. HTH

[Old Greg]

Who said that ?

That was me. HTH

[Mich the Tester]

The USSR was not socialist. HTH

Oh OK. So where were the socialist tractor factories?

[darmstadt]

Well that is a start I guess. But this would imply that Cameron is offering more benefits that he needs to under european rules. I find that hard to believe - he's a tory! (or he was one)

Read: European Commission in the UK – Euromyths and Letters to the Editor » Blog Archive » Free movement and migration within the EU and rights to claim benefits

Just in case: Stop mass immigration from Bulgarian and Romanians in 2014, when EU restrictions on immigration are relaxed. - e-petitions

Is the UK benefits system more generous than those in other EU countries? The systems are very diverse, so comparisons are difficult.
In terms of total spending on social security per inhabitant, the UK does not rank highest. In the UK the figure for 2010 was nearly 8,000 euros (£6,660; $10,880), the EU statistics agency Eurostat reports. In France and Germany it was nearly 9,000 euros, while in Denmark and the Netherlands it was above 10,000. At the other end of the scale, spending in Bulgaria and Romania was below 2,000 euros.

[KentPhilip]

Thirdly, no, there will be no 'regardless of debate'; there will be debate about this and it's only just getting started. Do not expect your ideas about the EU to go unchallenged by others. I don't expect my ideas to go unchallenged either.

No I meant regardless of the debate as to whether the EU was socialist or not...
i.e. even if the EU was completely capitalistic I would still not be in favour of it because it is not needed.
All we need in Europe is an absence of controls. Laisse faire is the way to go.

I welcome debate - even from you Mich

[Mich the Tester]

Read: European Commission in the UK – Euromyths and Letters to the Editor » Blog Archive » Free movement and migration within the EU and rights to claim benefits

Just in case: Stop mass immigration from Bulgarian and Romanians in 2014, when EU restrictions on immigration are relaxed. - e-petitions

Here 'e comes with his bloody facts again. Tut tut, huh.

[Old Greg]

Oh OK. So where were the socialist tractor factories?

There weren't any.