Greed is Good!

[doodab]

Equal in our value as human beings.

We are all worthless?

[DodgyAgent]

Equal in our value as human beings.

I am still trying to understand your definition (or any for that matter) of value. I can see where you are coming from but your "value" is just a word. Value is determined by societies and individuals and values are different according to many factors. I may value you in terms of wanting to engage with you and respect your "right to life". I wouldn't value you to the point of buying you a drink, paying for your education. Someone else might but not me. Because every person and society (value is usually defined by law in societies) values each other on entirely different terms and within hugely variable contexts it is therefore impossible to define equality other than through rule of law.

Not everyone treats everyone else in the same way.

[DodgyAgent]

We are all worthless?

We are all worth less than SASguru.

[Old Greg]

I am still trying to understand your definition (or any for that matter) of value. I can see where you are coming from but your "value" is just a word. Value is determined by societies and individuals and values are different according to many factors. I may value you in terms of wanting to engage with you and respect your "right to life". I wouldn't value you to the point of buying you a drink, paying for your education. Someone else might but not me. Because every person and society (value is usually defined by law in societies) values each other on entirely different terms and within hugely variable contexts it is therefore impossible to define equality other than through rule of law.

Not everyone treats everyone else in the same way.

I disagree. Equality before the law derives from a more profound sense of equality, but it is not in itself the definition of equality. Other things derive from that too. I am equally polite to strangers, because how polite I should be is determined in my mind by how I value them. The only information I have to determine how I should value them is that they are human, because I consider all other factors irrelevant to how I should value them. The law does not tell me to be equally polite. Do you not act in the same way? I suspect you probably do.

The point of my reference to the Founding Fathers (Thomas Jefferson to be precise) is the profound nature of this statement.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal...

Once you acknowledge this, many things flow from it. Yes, equality before the law, but also the way we treat people. The statement can take people in different directions. We may come to different conclusions when considering for example the support provided by society for someone who:

- Cannot find work
- Is incapable of work

Our conclusions may be different because we may have different views on:

- What is a desirable outcome
- What is economically efficient
- What is the business of society and the state

But the different conclusions do not invalidate the common view that we are equal. This is why I can agree with Sas and MTT on this, when I expect there is little else we agree on politically.

Another way of looking at this is by examining the reverse. You appear to think that we are not all equal. What do you mean by that?

[Old Greg]

We are all worth less than SASguru.

This is the wonder of it, Dodgy. Even hair gelled spivs are worth the same as everyone else.

[sasguru]

if you can draw firm conclusions with so few data points then you aren't a SASGuru you are a SASGod.
Please explain with references how you manage to do so. Or just insult me and fail to back up your claims as usual.

If you walk into a bar with 50 people in it and 20 are Ginger do you conclude?

1. 2/5 of the world population is Ginger?
2. You are in Scotland or Wales?
3. The Bar is having a "C.U. Jimmy" tribute night?
4. The McTavish family are having a Birthday party?
5. There isn't enough information to be sure?

If you answer anything other than 5 and want to ask questions then you aren't doing a good job.

You're showing your ignorance again.
If the 50 people are a random sample of the population you are trying to analyse you can certainly draw conclusions other than 5

HTH BIKIW.

[LisaContractorUmbrella]

[QUOTE=Old Greg;1848837]I disagree. Equality before the law derives from a more profound sense of equality, but it is not in itself the definition of equality. Other things derive from that too. I am equally polite to strangers, because how polite I should be is determined in my mind by how I value them. The only information I have to determine how I should value them is that they are human, because I consider all other factors irrelevant to how I should value them. The law does not tell me to be equally polite. Do you not act in the same way? I suspect you probably do.

So, if a stranger broke into your house and threatened you with a knife would you say to yourself that you should treat him politely because he has value as a human being or do you think that your primeval instincts would kick in and you would either fight or fly?

[darmstadt]

If you walk into a bar with 50 people in it and 20 are Ginger do you conclude?

1. 2/5 of the world population is Ginger?
2. You are in Scotland or Wales?
3. The Bar is having a "C.U. Jimmy" tribute night?
4. The McTavish family are having a Birthday party?
5. There isn't enough information to be sure?

Slightly racist question if put to the standards of political correctness?

[Old Greg]

[QUOTE=LisaContractorUmbrella;1848858]

I disagree. Equality before the law derives from a more profound sense of equality, but it is not in itself the definition of equality. Other things derive from that too. I am equally polite to strangers, because how polite I should be is determined in my mind by how I value them. The only information I have to determine how I should value them is that they are human, because I consider all other factors irrelevant to how I should value them. The law does not tell me to be equally polite. Do you not act in the same way? I suspect you probably do.

So, if a stranger broke into your house and threatened you with a knife would you say to yourself that you should treat him politely because he has value as a human being or do you think that your primeval instincts would kick in and you would either fight or fly?

I was going to add a proviso, 'All other things being equal' but thought it too obvious. My bad.

[vetran]

You're showing your ignorance again.
If the 50 people are a random sample of the population you are trying to analyse you can certainly draw conclusions other than 5

HTH BIKIW.

That is the point the points aren't a random sample. There are 50 countries each with its own peculiarities. Just as there are 50 'random' people in the Bar.

If you went into 50 Random Bars and sampled the population in them you could then make some inferences about people in bars.

as usual you have side stepped the question you can't answer!