Women in Tech

[mudskipper]

What about more male nursery assistants, secretaries, nurses etc.

Cultural stereotypes impact both men and women, the real question should be 'how can we prevent cultural stereotypes and prejudices around gender from impacting candidate selection.'

Good luck with that one.

Absolutely, spot on. But it's catch 22 -until you get more women in IT, the 'blokey' culture will continue (and it does exist, maybe not everywhere, but it's pretty widespread). And the blokey culture is probably putting women off entering IT in the first place. (Ditto for 'female' roles and barriers to men entering).

I think your male nursery nurse faces bigger hurdles - it's not good for a man to be seen as 'girly' whereas women can get away with being 'one of the lads'.

[Dominic Connor]

Absolutely, spot on. But it's catch 22 -until you get more women in IT, the 'blokey' culture will continue (and it does exist, maybe not everywhere, but it's pretty widespread). And the blokey culture is probably putting women off entering IT in the first place. (Ditto for 'female' roles and barriers to men entering).

I think your male nursery nurse faces bigger hurdles - it's not good for a man to be seen as 'girly' whereas women can get away with being 'one of the lads'.

All valid points.

This goes to a question of "encouraging" girls to do IT.
If we accept that joining a blokey culture and the other issues women face in IT aren't worth it, is it even slightly ethical to actively encourage girls to take it as a career ?

Some of my issues with girls-only computer clubs at schools and the large amount of scarce educational resources applied to girls is that it gives a false impression of the real world and I believe encourages the wrong girls to do IT, and certainly biases the distribution of talents.

If I make the huge assumption that innately girls have not only the same averages but same distribution of talents as boys, what does current schooling do to the two streams in terms of how they make decisions about their careers ?

Girls only clubs encourage girls who have difficulties in male environments. That may serve the social agendas of teacher who want to change society, but does not benefit the girls and it is worth pointing out that the number of women who give up IT careers is vastly higher than men, more than almost any other career and more than having kids accounts for.

I'm an old git and when I went to school in state schools girls did secretarial skills because it was expected that lots of them would be copy typist (for you young people that literally means typing in stuff you read on one sheet of paper to another), taking dictation from their male bosses, answering the phones etc.

It still exists.
But these days it is called ICT and given to both sexes.
The puerile rote learning of key sequences in MS Office, essays on how computers are used (but not how they work), no programming and absolutely no system management, looks remarkably like a 21st century seccie course.
...to a girl.

Because I have boys, I saw their contempt for this nonsense as a result of having parents who've educations in formal logic and who can explain some tech "because I was one of the guys who wrote that".

Actually it is also because as boys they have no fear that they will be secretaries, this idea is simply missing from their imaginations. Girls with equivalent aspirations to my kids have a fear that they may get sucked into some sort of secretary/low level admin role and whereas I saw IT when I was at school as a way up, girls often see ICT as a pothole to fall into.

Again I will get called sexist, but this idea isn't mine, it is from a female UK professor who has been trying to work out why only 7% of those taking Computing A level is female and the number is dropping.

On IT teachers forums I am a hate figure, since I in detail have enumerated the manifold and manifest problems with the Computing A level. It manages to be both trivial and obscure, asking questions like in what year copyright laws were passed (yes in a computing exam) asking whether a router is hardware or software as a multi choice question, etc.

No UK university requires the A level, some actively warn against taking it and so the fact that few girls get sucked into this largely worthless course implies that teenage girls are smarter than the boys.

(Such is the chippiness of some women, that I await with interest to see how they will interpret the last sentence as misogyny)

[norrahe]

Absolutely, spot on. But it's catch 22 -until you get more women in IT, the 'blokey' culture will continue (and it does exist, maybe not everywhere, but it's pretty widespread). And the blokey culture is probably putting women off entering IT in the first place. (Ditto for 'female' roles and barriers to men entering).

I think your male nursery nurse faces bigger hurdles - it's not good for a man to be seen as 'girly' whereas women can get away with being 'one of the lads'.

It's not only the blokey culture but for every step forward female intake makes, it makes several steps back when some idiot sues for "sexual harassment" in the workplace.

[mudskipper]

It's not only the blokey culture but for every step forward female intake makes, it makes several steps back when some idiot sues for "sexual harassment" in the workplace.

I don't know any women who have sued for sexual harrassment, or even made a formal complaint about it.

But if a woman is sexually harrassed, are you suggesting she should put up with it?

[norrahe]

I don't know any women who have sued for sexual harrassment, or even made a formal complaint about it.

But if a woman is sexually harrassed, are you suggesting she should put up with it?

I'm referring to women to have done so in the financial services industry and the "sexual harassment" referred to is the typical blokey behaviour which you will encounter on a daily basis, but some deem this necessary to sue.

If it is actual harassment, then yes, they should put in a formal complaint, but if it is blokey behaviour then no.

[SimonMac]

I don't know any women who have sued for sexual harrassment, or even made a formal complaint about it.

But if a woman is sexually harrassed, are you suggesting she should put up with it?

[SimonMac]

Norrahe, Mudskipper only one way to settle this.

Jelly Fight!

[mudskipper]

I'm referring to women to have done so in the financial services industry and the "sexual harassment" referred to is the typical blokey behaviour which you will encounter on a daily basis, but some deem this necessary to sue.

If it is actual harassment, then yes, they should put in a formal complaint, but if it is blokey behaviour then no.

I get what you're saying, but dismissive comments like

"Put the kettle on, love"
"Yep, but you're a bird"

don't really have a 'male' dismissive equivalent.

By shrugging them off (as most of us do) are we giving the message that it's OK, all part of the banter? I doubt most of us would think similar low level racist comments were OK. I guess, in the ideal world, the manager would point out to the offender(s) that such behaviour isn't professional, but I've never seen that happen.

[MyUserName]

I get what you're saying, but dismissive comments like

"Put the kettle on, love"
"Yep, but you're a bird"

Wow - I work in finance and I would never talk to a woman like that in the office. I would expect to be dragged up to meet HR. I assumed most offices in the UK, at least, were like this?

Although I am actually very careful about what I say at work as I have quite a sarcastic and crude sense of humour so I generally keep my mouth shut.

[SimonMac]

I get what you're saying, but dismissive comments like

"Put the kettle on, love"
"Yep, but you're a bird"

don't really have a 'male' dismissive equivalent.

By shrugging them off (as most of us do) are we giving the message that it's OK, all part of the banter? I doubt most of us would think similar low level racist comments were OK. I guess, in the ideal world, the manager would point out to the offender(s) that such behaviour isn't professional, but I've never seen that happen.

"Put the kettle on, mate"
"Yep, but you're a bloke"

As with all things the context is the key, and that can never come across in examples on a forum board. I all all the male colleagues "Boss" and the female ones "Hun", mainly cause I am crap with names and they are permies so I don't really care to remember them. A few times someone has objected and I have adjusted it for future conversations with them. If they had gone to HR and made a formal complaint it would have been massive over reaction, a quite word usually solves most problems