10,000 Britons are stranded in Lebanon

[AlfredJPruffock]

I know which one I want to win.

The only winners will be the guys selling the guns.

Hate is the root of Cancer
Love is the only Answer

[Fungus]

Well I did read that Israel's invasion of Lebanon in 1982 did away with the PLO and produced Hizbullah instead, the incarceration and elimination of Arafat only served to strengthen Hamas.

It is my belief that Israel's destabilisation of the PA, and refusal to hold a ceasefire even when the loonies were on ceasefire, handed power to Hamas. Hamas is in many respects a creation of Israel.

[DimPrawn]

Hamas is nice in pitta bread with salad.

HTH

[DodgyAgent]

It is my belief that Israel's destabilisation of the PA, and refusal to hold a ceasefire even when the loonies were on ceasefire, handed power to Hamas. Hamas is in many respects a creation of Israel.

It is that old appeasement argument again. I suppose the Israelis kidnapped their own soldiers?

http://timesonline.typepad.com/david_aaronovitch/

Maybe David Aaronovitch describes the argument a little better than I do.

The point that I make is that Israel is hardly in a position to go further than it has in terms of freedom and democracy given that it is surrounded by regimes that are bent on its total destruction. I am not really quite sure on what your point is here DaveB. Either you recognise it as a sovereign state or you do not. If you do not then yes argue that the rest of the world is entitled to wipe it out. If you do then presumably a compromise needs to be reached in order that people can move on towards peaceful co-existence. The question I then ask is what has Israel got to gain by continually destablising the middle East?

[DaveB]

It is that old appeasement argument again. I suppose the Israelis kidnapped their own soldiers?

http://timesonline.typepad.com/david_aaronovitch/

Maybe David Aaronovitch describes the argument a little better than I do.

The point that I make is that Israel is hardly in a position to go further than it has in terms of freedom and democracy given that it is surrounded by regimes that are bent on its total destruction. I am not really quite sure on what your point is here DaveB. Either you recognise it as a sovereign state or you do not. If you do not then yes argue that the rest of the world is entitled to wipe it out. If you do then presumably a compromise needs to be reached in order that people can move on towards peaceful co-existence. The question I then ask is what has Israel got to gain by continually destablising the middle East?

Your points are a little jumbled, but I'll try and take them one at a time.

What is it that means Israel cannot be a just, tolerant and fully inclusive society? Why does the fact that some of it's neighbours are hostile mean that it cannot include all it's citizens in that society. Democracy in Israel today is no better than the democracy of Aparteid era South Africa. Full inclusion of Arab Israelis and others in a secular Israeli state would go a long way to resoving a lot of the tensions and mistrust at the heart of the problems in the reigion.

Ok, I do recognise Israels right to exist as a country, I have never said otherwise. Indeed, in my original post I recognised Israels right to respond to attacks on it's territory and armed forces.

What I dont accept, and what the rest of the world doesnt accept to one degree or another, is the disproportionate nature of that response. The Israeli govt. should not be ordering the deliberate killing of civilians and the destruction of civilian targets in Lebanon in response to the kidnapping of members of it's armed forces. If you think this response is justified then please say so.

As far as Hezbullah firing rockets at Israeli towns is concerned, I have no more support for that than I had for the IRA pub bombings in the 70's or the Brighton hotel bomb. However, the British govt. didnt order the bombing of Belfast or order a blockade of the Irish Republic in response to IRA bombs on the mainland. Israel should not be using these as an excuse for the indescriminate targeting of civilians in retaliation. It makes them no better than Hezbollah, in many ways worse.

You ask what Israel has to gain by destabalising the region in this way? I don't know, why not ask them? They seem to think it's a good move right now.

[DodgyAgent]

Your points are a little jumbled, but I'll try and take them one at a time.

What is it that means Israel cannot be a just, tolerant and fully inclusive society? Why does the fact that some of it's neighbours are hostile mean that it cannot include all it's citizens in that society. Democracy in Israel today is no better than the democracy of Aparteid era South Africa. Full inclusion of Arab Israelis and others in a secular Israeli state would go a long way to resoving a lot of the tensions and mistrust at the heart of the problems in the reigion.

Ok, I do recognise Israels right to exist as a country, I have never said otherwise. Indeed, in my original post I recognised Israels right to respond to attacks on it's territory and armed forces.

What I dont accept, and what the rest of the world doesnt accept to one degree or another, is the disproportionate nature of that response. The Israeli govt. should not be ordering the deliberate killing of civilians and the destruction of civilian targets in Lebanon in response to the kidnapping of members of it's armed forces. If you think this response is justified then please say so.

As far as Hezbullah firing rockets at Israeli towns is concerned, I have no more support for that than I had for the IRA pub bombings in the 70's or the Brighton hotel bomb. However, the British govt. didnt order the bombing of Belfast or order a blockade of the Irish Republic in response to IRA bombs on the mainland. Israel should not be using these as an excuse for the indescriminate targeting of civilians in retaliation. It makes them no better than Hezbollah, in many ways worse.

You ask what Israel has to gain by destabalising the region in this way? I don't know, why not ask them? They seem to think it's a good move right now.

Israel is operting segregation in order to prevent arab suicide bombers from attacking Israeli citizens. I am pretty sure that were these extremists to be denied the support of the likes of Syria and Iran and that the threat of suicide bombers were to go away that Israel would open itself up more to the prescence of Arabs. Israel is not deliberatly attacking civilians it is attacking terrorist targets and civil infrastructure. Yes it is killing children and innocent people in the process but unlike Hezbollah it is not deliberately targeting the helopless. Were it to do so it could easily wipe out many many thousands of inncocent children.

You say that Israel's response is disproportionate, to which I would ask what is proportionate given that these terrorists are hidden amongst the lebanese population. By reacting so vigorously the Israelis are switching the onus of responsibility for allowing Hezbollah to strike back onto eh government of Lebanon. You could call any war disproportionate to the initial conflict that started it.

I am getting away from my original point here, which was that those who oppose Israel so vigorously are part of a left wing politically correct consensus. These people see Israel as the embodiment of everything they hate about Britain. It is always politically expedient for people to pretend that they somehow care about the oppressed (Geldof, Bono Vanesssa Redgrave) in order to give themselves some sort of moral integrity. After all few people dare question or challenge others who purportedly sympathise with the weak and poor. How else does socialism survive?

[TwoWolves]

I am getting away from my original point here, which was that those who oppose Israel so vigorously are part of a left wing politically correct consensus.

I'm a right-wing crypto-fascist yet I find it hard to support Israeli strategy on many occasions.

In part because its irrational or self-defeating but mostly because we, in Europe and the US pay a high price for their stupidity.

Sometimes it gets so hard to see the truth because of this very kind reductive logic.

[DodgyAgent]

I'm a right-wing crypto-fascist yet I find it hard to support Israeli strategy on many occasions.

In part because its irrational or self-defeating but mostly because we, in Europe and the US pay a high price for their stupidity.

Sometimes it gets so hard to see the truth because of this very kind reductive logic.

That is fair enough but Israel has been trying to engage even Hamas in the South and it has not been pursuing targets or military actions in the North. Israel has begun to dismantle settlements. It is my view that the principla agenda for Israel is peace, that where its version of peace may be at the expense of fairness with its arab nations it is for the diplomats to fine tune. History shows that whenever Israel relents its control it is immediatly attacked.

It appeared to me that Israel was peacefully working its way towards peace with its neighbours and was for no good reason attacked on two fronts.

[NickIT]

I'm a right-wing crypto-fascist yet I find it hard to support Israeli strategy on many occasions.

In part because its irrational or self-defeating but mostly because we, in Europe and the US pay a high price for their stupidity.

Sometimes it gets so hard to see the truth because of this very kind reductive logic.

Well then you are living up to crypto-fascism....

So I am not surprised you say what you have. Of course the issue is one of your being truthfull and honest.

Always a problem with crypto-fascists.

[Dundeegeorge]

I'm a right wing crypto-fascist

George Formby's best ever track, a classic