The Living Wage

[SueEllen]

All things being equal it will reduce jobs (unless it's set above the equilibrium price) though it's normally too subtle to detect against background tides. There is a subtle and steady increase in youth unemployment since the minimum wage turned up though.

If you ever tried to employ or work with any British youth then I'm not surprised.

A decent wage is what the market states. It makes no sense to artificially increase wages, and it makes no sense to give people money that they haven't earnt. These things are nice in the short term, but fail in the long term.

There is more to living in a society than the market.

If we left it to the market then there would be people begging on the street like in India, South American and African countries. There would be slums and shanty towns like those countries.

The choice we have is we either pay as tax payers for these people to have a minimum standard of living, or we force and encourage employers to do it.

[d000hg]

A council should be trying to provide as high a service as it can for as low as it can.

It does not and has never been given a mandate to provide better working conditions to its staff.

Idiot.

[minestrone]

If you ever tried to employ or work with any British youth then I'm not surprised.


There is more to living in a society than the market.

If we left it to the market then there would be people begging on the street like in India, South American and African countries. There would be slums and shanty towns like those countries.

The choice we have is we either pay as tax payers for these people to have a minimum standard of living, or we force and encourage employers to do it.

There were just as many beggars before the minimum wage., so you are talking out your hole with the 'oh we might end up like India' pish.

Germany does not have a minimum wage, Italy, Greece and Spain do.

Which one does the market work for best there?

[minestrone]

Idiot.

Here comes CUK Mr Personality...

[Robinho]

If you ever tried to employ or work with any British youth then I'm not surprised.

Which is why you need the ability to pay them f*** all otherwise, they're not worth hiring.

There is more to living in a society than the market.

If we left it to the market then there would be people begging on the street like in India, South American and African countries. There would be slums and shanty towns like those countries.

No there wouldn't. These are undeveloped economies, which is why there is poverty, not because they don't have benefits. The market isn't constantly driving down the standard of living for the poor - the poor are constantly getting richer, they just don't realise it because they only ever compare themselves to the rich - it's basic jealousy.

The choice we have is we either pay as tax payers for these people to have a minimum standard of living, or we force and encourage employers to do it.

We don't have any choice, we are forced to pay taxes by a regime with a monopoly on force (government). If people were so passionate about caring for the poor they should put their hand in their pocket and give to charity.

[SueEllen]

There were just as many beggars before the minimum wage., so you are talking out your hole with the 'oh we might end up like India' pish.

There were not many beggars and homeless people during my childhood. (This was pointed out to me quite a few times by my older relations.)

Granted there was no minimum wage but:
1. There were a lot of immigrants where I lived
2. Rents were lower in proportion to wages
3. There was more social housing and people found it easier to get.
4. There were works councils

Germany does not have a minimum wage, Italy, Greece and Spain do.

The German economy runs on a different basis to Italy, Greece and Spain.

For example in Germany like most Northern European economies residents pay their taxes.

Germany has works councils and their unions work with management to make businesses work.

Our union history is one generally of conflict with management, ASLEF being a current example.

Which one does the market work for best there?

Depends if your country is principally an exporter of high quality goods, a service economy or a mess.

[VectraMan]

If we left it to the market then there would be people begging on the street like in India, South American and African countries. There would be slums and shanty towns like those countries.

Clearly there's a balance to be struck. I think a big part of the problem is that benefits and minimum wage don't track the labour market. It might make sense to have a higher minimum wage and benefits in boom years, but in a recession they should be cut to maintain employment. Of course, that'd never happen; it wouldn't be "fair" in the eyes of the majority.

[Robinho]

Clearly there's a balance to be struck. I think a big part of the problem is that benefits and minimum wage don't track the labour market. It might make sense to have a higher minimum wage and benefits in boom years, but in a recession they should be cut to maintain employment. Of course, that'd never happen; it wouldn't be "fair" in the eyes of the majority.

What's the point in having a minimum wage then?

Enjoy...

[minestrone]

See when threads go multi reply and posts have numbered points I can't be arsed anymore.

[SueEllen]

Which is why you need the ability to pay them f*** all otherwise, they're not worth hiring.

You can sack them very easily. Also apprentices get paid very little.

The loss of money isn't in paying them it is actually getting them to do some work in the first place.

It's cheaper to employ someone who uses their common sense and has a work ethic and pay them slightly more, than 2 people who are useless.

No there wouldn't. These are undeveloped economies, which is why there is poverty, not because they don't have benefits. The market isn't constantly driving down the standard of living for the poor - the poor are constantly getting richer, they just don't realise it because they only ever compare themselves to the rich - it's basic jealousy.

You obviously haven't looked at economic figures.

The poor and average earners in the UK are actually worse of than 8 years ago. They have less disposable income, and food prices have gone up meaning that they have cut down on certain food.

We don't have any choice, we are forced to pay taxes by a regime with a monopoly on force (government). If people were so passionate about caring for the poor they should put their hand in their pocket and give to charity.

All successful economies with a decent sized population force their residents to pay taxes. Most them a lot more than us.