On religion

[escapeUK]

Marx said that Religion is what you place highest in life.

Im a religion?

[hyperD]

You go to heaven because you ask Jesus to get you there. You go to hell because you don't. A matter of choice.

What happens to those who've never heard of Jesus is subject to debate. There's nothing really definitive in the bible that addresses this issue. However, if you have heard the gospel, you certainly are without excuse.

You see NaT, this is what I find strange. If someone shows you the Christian faith then accordingly, once observed, you are then forced to make a decision, the outcome of which determines the direction of travel.

If you haven't heard of the Christian faith, then there's no data on requiring a choice.

This sort of paradigm reminds me of a human-state-political construct, which I find a little unsettling.

Not being confrontational, just curious as to why these two states exists.

[norrahe]

Im a religion?

and so's my wife

[NotAllThere]

You see NaT, this is what I find strange. If someone shows you the Christian faith then accordingly, once observed, you are then forced to make a decision, the outcome of which determines the direction of travel.

If you haven't heard of the Christian faith, then there's no data on requiring a choice.

Some say that those who haven't heard are judged according to the light they received; i.e. have they put their trust in God to save them, rather than trusting in their own good works to save them. Others say that all mankind is guilty of sin and deserving everlasting hellfire, so if some are saved - well that's just mercy. Others believe in a universal salvation by some means - that is, everyone, regardless, ends up in heaven at some point.

Terry Pratchett suggests that those who've never heard, get the result of their belief, which is why it's important to shoot missionaries on sight.

[d000hg]

We keep on being told that religion, whatever its imperfections, at least instills morality. On every side, there is conclusive evidence that the contrary is the case and that faith causes people to be more mean, more selfish, and perhaps above all, more stupid.

Christopher Hitchens.

It's great to make claims about "everyone knows" or "conclusive evidence" isn't it? If you're going to be fair about this, you should read Chris' brother's thoughts on the subject too.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence.

A couple of issues with that:

1. Where is the evidence for that assertion?
2. Christians would claim there is a lot of evidence for the assertions being made... read The Case for Christ or the stuff covered in Alpha and while you might not agree with the evidence or find it compelling, it's ludicrous to say there is no evidence to judge.

Which person is 'better'?

The person who goes through life being good and nice to get a ticket to heaven
The person who goes through life being good and nice for no expected reward

Well Christianity doesn't teach that you get a ticket to Heaven by being good or nice. And in fact it does say you should be good and nice not for reward.

It seems odd to me that God would turn away a good person who didn't believe in Jesus.

It is odd when viewed through what our secular society teaches. Nobody is denying that. But your definition of a "good person" is not the same as God's definition. If you can meet God's definition then you won't be turned away - why should God care what your definition of a 'good person' is?

[d000hg]

You see NaT, this is what I find strange. If someone shows you the Christian faith then accordingly, once observed, you are then forced to make a decision, the outcome of which determines the direction of travel.

If you haven't heard of the Christian faith, then there's no data on requiring a choice.

There is no definitive answer to this - NAT suggests some options. As a Christian though you have to figure that God knows what He's doing and is a fair judge.

I heard an argument once that said if we had a definite answer that those who haven't heard or are unable to understand the Gospel would be saved, we'd have seen historical waves of infanticide and genocide as well-meaning Christians made the logical leap it would be best to kill people before they had a chance to screw it up. That might at first sight seem a rather facetious argument but looking back at history, I'm not so sure!

[Gentile]

My tuppence worth on religion: the most grounded people I know are those people whom I've been friends with for years, yet I have no idea what their religious beliefs (or lack thereof) may be. Whatever people do or don't believe isn't the issue. Whether they're content enough in themselves to believe whatever they do and not foist their views on the subject onto everyone around them seems to be the thing that keeps them grounded. They treat whatever they happen to believe as being as pointless to argue about as the law of gravity: it is what it is, whatever anyone else's views on the subject may be.

[NotAllThere]

...As a Christian though you have to figure that God knows what He's doing and is a fair judge.

Doesn't the idea of unmerited grace mean that no-one deserves salvation, and therefore God is manifestly unfair? I.e. he doesn't give everyone what they deserve.

Since Dawkins wrote the God Delusion, I've noticed a decrease in the ability of atheists to put together a coherent argument. They prefer to quote from their holy books, than actually engage rationally.

[d000hg]

No, God can only be fair - which is why he can't look the other way and let people in. Grace is not deserved, but it isn't unfair either.

[doodab]

Since Dawkins wrote the God Delusion, I've noticed a decrease in the ability of atheists to put together a coherent argument. They prefer to quote from their holy books, than actually engage rationally.

A lot of truth in that I think. Probably helped a lot of muddle headed non believers clear up what they thought they were thinking.