On religion

[speling bee]

It seems to me that there's a number of variations you could subscribe to

1) There's no God
2) There is a God, but he's not 'active' - the clockmaker theory.
3) There is a God, but he's not perfect - we're his playthings and he's capricious and sometimes throws his toys out the pram (the Greeks never believed their gods were perfect)
4) There is a God, he's perfect, all wise and all powerful. When tulip happens it's part of his grand plan.

Most religions go with 4. I guess it's the safest option if you think your eternity might depend on keeping him happy.

It's still not a great bet if you get the wrong flavour religion.

[NotAllThere]

...Evolution is simply a theory based on observations of the real world, it is not trying to prove or disprove the existence of God.

And of course, like any other theory, it has its problems. Just that no-one, so far, has come up with a better one. "God did it" might be true, but it isn't science.

I know biologists who will admit in private that they're quite sceptical over many aspects of evolution, but they won't say so in public, since it's one of those things that at the moment - largely in reaction to creationists - you just don't question if you want to keep your career.

[Mich the Tester]

I know biologists who will admit in private that they're quite sceptical over many aspects of evolution, but they won't say so in public, since it's one of those things that at the moment - largely in reaction to creationists - you just don't question if you want to keep your career.

Yep, but 'sceptical about aspects' does not equal 'sceptical about evolution'.

[MyUserName]

I have never understood the Jesus dying for our sins thing.

Jesus was not the 'son' of God in the way that my son is my son. He is merely the corporeal representation of God.

Jesus did not die - he cannot die because he is God and God is immortal. The human body he was currently occupying might have 'died' but 'he' lives forever. Also he rose again from the dead anyway so he did not stay dead in any sense of the word.

God lost nothing with this sacrifice as Jesus was not his son in the first place and God did not lose him as they are 'together' in heaven. All that happened was that God temporarily animated a human host and gave it a human death which he then reversed as a show of power before recalling the sentience that occupied the body back to heaven.

I also cannot understand Satan:

By definition God is all powerful therefore he knows everything that Satan is going to do before he does it and can prevent it. What exactly is Satan hoping to achieve?

I also cannot understand free will:

God allows us to make mistakes which will result in our eternal torture (ask someone who has been waterboarded how they would feel if that was going to go on forever - only worse) because to do otherwise would rob us of free will which would destroy our humanity.

Why not make humanity such that it did not require free will? Recall that he is all powerful therefore nothing is imposssible for him.

[NotAllThere]

Yep, but 'sceptical about aspects' does not equal 'sceptical about evolution'.

That was diplomatically stating that they believe that the difficulties of the theory of evolution are such as to make it untenable. I.e. they don't believe it to be true. They don't, however, have an alternative.

[RasputinDude]

I know biologists who will admit in private that they're quite sceptical over many aspects of evolution, but they won't say so in public,

So do I; including a professor of biology in my church. I was taking exception to the assertion though that the 'purpose' of evolution is to disprove God.

[MyUserName]

That was diplomatically stating that they believe that the difficulties of the theory of evolution are such as to make it untenable. I.e. they don't believe it to be true. They don't, however, have an alternative.

If they had good scientific basis for blowing a hole in evolutionary theory then why aren't they currently doing the lecture circuit across the world's leading universities and making a fortune by writing books about how evolution is provably false.

TBH I think it is more likely that either they are indulging in wishful thinking or they are mistaken.

[NotAllThere]

I have never understood the Jesus dying for our sins thing.

No-one really does.

Jesus was not the 'son' of God in the way that my son is my son. He is merely the corporeal representation of God.

No. The difference between your son and God's son is that your son was created by you and your missus, whereas Jesus was begotten, having always existed in that relationship of Son to the Father.

Jesus did not die - he cannot die because he is God and God is immortal. The human body he was currently occupying might have 'died' but 'he' lives forever. Also he rose again from the dead anyway so he did not stay dead in any sense of the word.

Jesus did die, as God and as Man. He is fully human and fully God. His body died, then whatever happens to that part of us that is us went to the place of the dead, separated from God.

God lost nothing with this sacrifice as Jesus was not his son in the first place and God did not lose him as they are 'together' in heaven. All that happened was that God temporarily animated a human host and gave it a human death which he then reversed as a show of power before recalling the sentience that occupied the body back to heaven.

The Father and the Son were seperated by death. The sacrifice was the son giving himself up to death on our behalf, and the Father giving up his only son up to death on our behalf. God was not temporarily animating a human host á la avatar - Jesus is fully human and fully god.

I also cannot understand Satan:

By definition God is all powerful therefore he knows everything that Satan is going to do before he does it and can prevent it. What exactly is Satan hoping to achieve?

Cause as much damage to humans and prevent as many as possible from going to heaven, because he's nasty like that. Why God doesn't prevent Satan's actions, nobody really knows. I know I don't.

I also cannot understand free will:

God allows us to make mistakes which will result in our eternal torture (ask someone who has been waterboarded how they would feel if that was going to go on forever - only worse) because to do otherwise would rob us of free will which would destroy our humanity.

Why not make humanity such that it did not require free will? Recall that he is all powerful therefore nothing is imposssible for him.

This relates to the problem of evil, for which I've never heard a satisfactory answer.

HTH

[NotAllThere]

So do I; including a professor of biology in my church. I was taking exception to the assertion though that the 'purpose' of evolution is to disprove God.

Some people like to use it like that.

If they had good scientific basis for blowing a hole in evolutionary theory then why aren't they currently doing the lecture circuit across the world's leading universities and making a fortune by writing books about how evolution is provably false.

Because they haven't got anything better to replace it and to question evolution is an excellent route for an academic to the dole queue. They're simply not convinced by the arguments of evolutionary biologists. Just look at the derision poured on Behe - he raised some important points that should have been addressed. It was just easier to attack him as a creationist in disguise than to tackle his arguments. Dismiss the man, and you don't have to address with the concerns - ever the way of the political system. And science is every bit as political as any other walk of life.

The point is that "evolution is true" is not the standpoint of many scientists - nor biologists.

Fwiw, I'm absolutely not a creationist.

[speling bee]

I have never understood the Jesus dying for our sins thing.

Jesus was not the 'son' of God in the way that my son is my son. He is merely the corporeal representation of God.

Jesus did not die - he cannot die because he is God and God is immortal. The human body he was currently occupying might have 'died' but 'he' lives forever. Also he rose again from the dead anyway so he did not stay dead in any sense of the word.

God lost nothing with this sacrifice as Jesus was not his son in the first place and God did not lose him as they are 'together' in heaven. All that happened was that God temporarily animated a human host and gave it a human death which he then reversed as a show of power before recalling the sentience that occupied the body back to heaven.

I also cannot understand Satan:

By definition God is all powerful therefore he knows everything that Satan is going to do before he does it and can prevent it. What exactly is Satan hoping to achieve?

I also cannot understand free will:

God allows us to make mistakes which will result in our eternal torture (ask someone who has been waterboarded how they would feel if that was going to go on forever - only worse) because to do otherwise would rob us of free will which would destroy our humanity.

Why not make humanity such that it did not require free will? Recall that he is all powerful therefore nothing is imposssible for him.

Jesus was both the son of God and God. Both man and God.

So the man died and rose again and the God live immortal.

God saw his son (see above) suffer the torment of crucifixion, so there is the loss.

Satan is a bit of an odd one, but he has rebelled against God and perhaps that rebellion is his agenda.

God has indeed given us free will and we choose to sin. But through his blameless son's sacrifice, we can be saved, although if you've never heard of Jesus it seems a bit tough.

Some of it is a mystery that we can only understand through faith and even then not fully.