So Lance Armstrong is a liar and a cheat

[Mich the Tester]

That's not punishment. Seems to me this has always been about the money and not the bike/titles. I therefore have no issue with him and others in collusion being punished both for financial damages and for the criminal component of their actions. Taking away his titles is not sufficient.

But what makes you so angry about it?

[fckvwls]

But what makes you so angry about it?

An abhorrence of cheating and a desire to see the law treat all criminals the same, regardless of whether they are famous sportsman, politicians or any other form of celebrity.

Call me old-fashioned but utilising "sentencing as a deterrent" still counts for something in my book.

[Zippy]

For every doper that gets away with it there's a Florence Griffith-Joyner.

[TheBigD]

For every doper that gets away with it there's a Florence Griffith-Joyner.

Of course, they'll always be cheats. It doesn't mean we should accept cheating as the norm though.

[Old Hack]

Of course, they'll always be cheats. It doesn't mean we should accept cheating as the norm though.

But I actually believe cheating is the norm, and that being clean isn't.

I genuinely believe all that is happening, is that the dopers run in front of the testers. We'd still not know about Armstrong if he hadn't been dobbed in, 10 years and more after the fact. We only found about some of the bad ones 10 years or so after their feats.

I would say it's endemic in sport.

It's why part of me is tempted to say do what you want. As I said, at least we'd then know it was a level playing field.

[Mich the Tester]

Of course, they'll always be cheats. It doesn't mean we should accept cheating as the norm though.

I'm not suggesting accepting it as the norm, I'm suggesting it's time to be realistic; drugs were being used in many many sports for donkey's years. If you ever want to get too the truth you need people to come forward and say what they know without fear of losing everything, and just as important, especially in team sports, without fear of tulipting all over their mates.

I think Bradley Wiggins spoke sense about this, saying he now appreciates how lucky he is to have had the GB system around him, because otherwise he may have ended up doing something similar. He didn't condone the cheating, but was realistic about it; he knows the score in professional sport and is considerably less vicious in his criticism of Armstrong than the journos and armchair experts who've never been in the dressing room of high level sports. He knows the pressure and he knows it's human to err, especially if you're young.

[TheBigD]

But I actually believe cheating is the norm, and that being clean isn't.

I genuinely believe all that is happening, is that the dopers run in front of the testers. We'd still not know about Armstrong if he hadn't been dobbed in, 10 years and more after the fact. We only found about some of the bad ones 10 years or so after their feats.

I would say it's endemic in sport.

It's why part of me is tempted to say do what you want. As I said, at least we'd then know it was a level playing field.

I disagree. I look at the British performances in the Olympics and can't see any obvious juicers. Football, Rugby, Tennis? You get the occasional scandal but it's far from the norm.

Track and field, gymnastics, pro cycling - there probably the worst affected, but I think things have improved greatly over the last 10 years.

[Old Hack]

I disagree. I look at the British performances in the Olympics and can't see any obvious juicers. Football, Rugby, Tennis? You get the occasional scandal but it's far from the norm.

Track and field, gymnastics, pro cycling - there probably the worst affected, but I think things have improved greatly over the last 10 years.

That's cool, it's all about how you feel I guess and I just think they mask them better. I genuinely think we'll hear of some new masking agent, then the tulip will hit the fan again. I am not saying it's 99.9%, but I do think its quite significant.

[Mich the Tester]

I disagree. I look at the British performances in the Olympics and can't see any obvious juicers. Football, Rugby, Tennis? You get the occasional scandal but it's far from the norm.

Track and field, gymnastics, pro cycling - there probably the worst affected, but I think things have improved greatly over the last 10 years.

I think it's under control in rugby right now, as the players actually seem to be getting slimmer recently, but in the late 90s and early 2000s I saw guys playing international and first class rugby that I'd known in colts, under 21s and student rugby; even the shape of their faces had changed. Bigger jaws, wider faces; typical testosterone look. There was a lot of interesting stuff going on in the early days of officially pro rugby union, and quite a bit in the shamateur days.

[DodgyAgent]

That's cool, it's all about how you feel I guess and I just think they mask them better. I genuinely think we'll hear of some new masking agent, then the tulip will hit the fan again. I am not saying it's 99.9%, but I do think its quite significant.

You have no evidence of that at all. just like a conspiracy theory or religious dogma anything can be said without proof.
If sport as you say descends into a free for all for drug enhancements then it will become nothing more than a freak show. This would put kids off wanting to play sport and destroy a facet of life that is important in enabling human beings to find happiness.