So Lance Armstrong is a liar and a cheat

[SueEllen]

The Chinese are doing things that are even worse than doping, particularly among young child gymnasts, who are drilled in boarding schools from age 5 or even less, folded up into ridiculous positions and sat upon by 'coaches', forced to hang by their hands on high bars until muscle failure, which is an extremely painful situation in isometric exercises, and basically forced to endure more pain than most adult athletes would even consider going through.

I know.

A mate of mines wife told me of the torture she experienced over 30 years ago to turn her into a gymnast as a child. (She is Chinese.) It didn't work and she was left with stunned growth and some of her limbs look funny. Meanwhile her sister who escaped this torture is apparently normal height.

It was brought up in conversation because there was a thing on childrens' TV then about Eastern European gymnasts and why they were so successful when the UK gymnasts weren't. Obviously it was edited to not look so horrible but it did particularly as there were children crying in pain. Though they weren't shown crying when their coaches were trying to give them flat backs.

[Mich the Tester]

I know.

A mate of mines wife told me of the torture she experienced over 30 years ago to turn her into a gymnast as a child. (She is Chinese.) It didn't work and she was left with stunned growth and some of her limbs look funny. Meanwhile her sister who escaped this torture is apparently normal height.

It was brought up in conversation because there was a thing on childrens' TV then about Eastern European gymnasts and why they were so successful when the UK gymnasts weren't. Obviously it was edited to not look so horrible but it did particularly as there were children crying in pain. Though they weren't shown crying when their coaches were trying to give them flat backs.

Indeed, and while the IOC turns a blind eye to something I can only describe as institutionalised, government sponsored child abuse, USADA continue with their campaign against Armstrong. Today they've said they're handing evidence of perjury to US courts; they are basically trying to do the same thing to him as they did to Marion Jones, which went way over the top and became simply vindictive. They'll keep going until he ends up bankrupt and in jail, just like Jones. It's not necessary and it's counterproductive; you need people to be prepared to confess and give information about how they covered up drug use in the past, so that you can take action to top it in future. Bankrupting former sportspeople who have families to care for and businesses to run is not going to help do that.

If the IOC and other authorities really cared about health and the law, they'd take action against China and leave individual athletes from another era alone.

[fckvwls]

Why should ill gotten gains and crimes such as perjury not be punished?

[escapeUK]

I knew it! I knew the moon landing was a fake. Oh.. You mean the guy who rides what is really a child's form of transport. Do you really care about that? Seriously?

[Mich the Tester]

Why should ill gotten gains and crimes such as perjury not be punished?

They have been punished, and are being punished; titles are being handed in. But there comes a point where it becomes counter-productive. There are lots of sportspeople who used naughty stuff and lots who know how they hid the use of it; really what's needed is to get the methods out in the open. I can't imagine people from other sports will now be willing to talk about their own experiences given what's happened to Marion Jones and what it looks like is happening to Armstrong. Remember, these weren't people who directly damaged the public interest or other members of the public; what they did was against the rules of a game. What makes their offence so much worse than my smacking a Frenchman's chops during a rugby match? What makes them worse than footballers diving? They cheated; cheating happens in sport, and the higher the standard, the cleverer the cheating. I have cheated, and I've played dirty. Not proud of that, but it was part of the game. That's not to endorse cheating, and I think sports bodies should do their best to stop it, but there's no need to involve criminal courts and start destroying people's lives and livelihoods.

[Old Hack]

He's done what they all did, but did it more successfully. But any enterprise is only as good as the security that surrounds it. Involving 20 odd + people in it ensures it was bound to get out.

Guilty, but only in so far as he got caught, and there are hundreds of other professional cyclists still peddling their trade (excuse the pun), full of drugs.

I sometimes think they should just let them go for it, **** it. See what type of human they can generate...

[Mich the Tester]

He's done what they all did, but did it more successfully. But any enterprise is only as good as the security that surrounds it. Involving 20 odd + people in it ensures it was bound to get out.

Guilty, but only in so far as he got caught, and there are hundreds of other professional cyclists still peddling their trade (excuse the pun), full of drugs.

I sometimes think they should just let them go for it, **** it. See what type of human they can generate...

So how would you feel about young kids with ambitions to be professional sportspeople using drugs, as they were forced to do in the GDR?

[Old Hack]

So how would you feel about young kids with ambitions to be professional sportspeople using drugs, as they were forced to do in the GDR?

I just think it's done all the way up, just different methods.

I'd venture in future years, we found some of todays stars have taken drugs, that they have managed to mask

Just the way professional sport is unfortunately. I'd rather they say, ok, gloves off, do what you want. At least it would be a level playing field, and we'd all know it, they'd be no suspicions

[TheBigD]

They have been punished, and are being punished; titles are being handed in. But there comes a point where it becomes counter-productive. There are lots of sportspeople who used naughty stuff and lots who know how they hid the use of it; really what's needed is to get the methods out in the open. I can't imagine people from other sports will now be willing to talk about their own experiences given what's happened to Marion Jones and what it looks like is happening to Armstrong. Remember, these weren't people who directly damaged the public interest or other members of the public; what they did was against the rules of a game. What makes their offence so much worse than my smacking a Frenchman's chops during a rugby match? What makes them worse than footballers diving? They cheated; cheating happens in sport, and the higher the standard, the cleverer the cheating. I have cheated, and I've played dirty. Not proud of that, but it was part of the game. That's not to endorse cheating, and I think sports bodies should do their best to stop it, but there's no need to involve criminal courts and start destroying people's lives and livelihoods.

There's a lot of merit in what you post, but LA is being punished for not only taking illeagal PED's, but for being the ringleader of one of the most sophisticated doping programs seen in sport. I can understand why they are being this harsh with him and don't have a problem with it.

Going easier on people in order to get them to reveal their methods? Not convinced. Next year the methods will be completly different and we'll be in the same situation. Make the punishments so sever that the majority of sportspeople won't entertain doping, and it doesn't matter what the methods.

Obviously, no matter what punishments you have in place, there will always be a minority who choose to dope.

[fckvwls]

They have been punished, and are being punished; titles are being handed in. .

That's not punishment. Seems to me this has always been about the money and not the bike/titles. I therefore have no issue with him and others in collusion being punished both for financial damages and for the criminal component of their actions. Taking away his titles is not sufficient.