what happened to free speech

[Mich the Tester]

Inderdaad, Ik lees het Nederlands.

This is the exception that confirms the rule.

He wouldn't last 5 minutes if he preached that in any Muslim country.

Indeed he wouldn't in some muslim countries, and that's why he campaigns so much and gains the vote of many young muslims.

But the statement 'exception confirms the rule' is simply nonsense. An exception does the absolute opposite; it demonstrates that the 'rule' is false.

If an apple were to detach from a tree and fly around shouting 'I am an apple innit' then you could conclude one of two things;
- it isn't an apple
or
- something wrong with the theory of gravity

Ockham's razor suggests it ain't an apple. But to claim 'a flying and singing apple is the exception that proves the law of gravity' is preposterous.

[KaiserWilly]

Indeed he wouldn't in some muslim countries, and that's why he campaigns so much and gains the vote of many young muslims.

But the statement 'exception confirms the rule' is simply nonsense. An exception does the absolute opposite; it demonstrates that the 'rule' is false.

No way. I am sure you can find a nice Muslim guy in the Netherlands, but the fact is that 60% of them have a criminal record.

[Mich the Tester]

the fact is that 60% of them have a criminal record.

How are you defining muslims in NL?

[xoggoth]

Because most of them do, but some people like to talk a lot of tulip about Islamic countries

Unusually, the tulip is from you in this instance. For the most part, even when the constitution officially espouses equality, in practice, there are significant restrictions and not at all the sort of freedom that Muslims expect from us here - public display of worship is often banned and anything that looks like an attempt to convert Muslims can be a criminal offence.

I suggest some on here actually check facts rather than parrot this tolerant Islam stuff. The religious freedom reports by the US department of State are a good starting point.

International Religious Freedom Report for 2011

Take the first stable Muslim country on the list, Algeria, one of the more tolerant Muslim nations:

The constitution provides for religious freedom, but other laws, policies, and practices have a restrictive effect on religious freedom. The government did not demonstrate a trend towards either improvement of or deterioration in respect for and protection of the right to religious freedom. Article 2 of the constitution declares Islam the state religion and prohibits institutions from engaging in behavior incompatible with Islamic morality. Other laws and regulations provide non-Muslims the freedom to practice their religion as long as it is in keeping with public order, morality, and respect for the rights and basic freedoms of others. However, non-Muslim groups have long experienced difficulty when attempting to register with the government. Proselytizing is a criminal offense and carries a punishment of one to three years in jail, but implementation has been irregular. Depending on the severity of the infraction (e.g., selling Bibles as opposed to actively proselytizing), one-time fines against Christians can range from 500 dinars ($6.95) to 500,000 dinars ($6,957). Government officials emphasized the dominant role of Islam in society. Christian groups cited lengthy delays in receiving, and outright denials for, visas for their personnel to work in Algeria as a major concern. However, some Christian groups indicated that the visa situation has improved compared to previous years.

There were reports of societal abuses or discrimination based on religious affiliation, belief, or practice. Although society generally tolerated foreigners and citizens who practiced religions other than Islam, some local converts to Christianity kept a low profile due to concern for their personal safety and potential legal and social problems. Extremists harassed and threatened the personal security of some converts to Christianity. Violent extremists continued to refer to interpretations of religious texts to justify their killing of security force members and civilians. Muslim religious and political leaders publicly criticized acts of violence committed in the name of Islam.

Many are much worse, like the Maldives:

The constitution and other laws and policies restrict religious freedom and, in practice, the government enforced these restrictions. The government demonstrated a trend toward deterioration in respect for and protection of the right to religious freedom. Freedom of religion remained severely restricted. The law prohibits citizens’ practice of any religion other than Islam and requires the government exert control over all religious matters, including the practice of Islam.

[Mich the Tester]

Take the first stable Muslim country on the list, Algeria, one of the more tolerant Muslim nations:

I have said nothing about 'tolerant islam'. I agree that there are huge problems in Islamic countries, and some of those problems spill over to here. I just object to the idea of lumping all muslims together in one category and I don't understand what can ever be achieved by doing so. If you want to start solving problems, you need to help and go into dialog with those muslims who are prepared to do so, and not tar everyone with the some brush, for the very simple reason that tarring all muslims and muslim countries with the same brush will only make things worse.

[KaiserWilly]

How are you defining muslims in NL?

Troublemakers is the nicest word I can come up with.

[chef]

No way. I am sure you can find a nice Muslim guy in the Netherlands, but the fact is that 60% of them have a criminal record.

I cannot believe I am even replying to such an offensive narrowminded bigot as yourself but I have to ask, where do you get that statistic from because as far as I can tell, governments do not collect crime statistics based on religion, race yes but not religion and therefore I think you are talking out of your arse. Quote your source or stop posting such bigoted bile.

[d000hg]

You don't understand anything, you moron.

First of all, not all Muslim countries allow Christian worship. Not Saudi Arabia (our lovely ally). Even bringing a Bible is verboten. There is a religious police, the Mutawah. You cant set foot in Mecca and Medina if you are an infidel, etc.

So what. SOME countries is not ALL Muslims.

Secondly, blasphemy here is understood not as practicing other religion but opposing any Islamic doctrine. If you think that Prophet Mo didn't fly from Mecca to Jerusalem on the back of an angel and you express that view publicly, you are in trouble. Islam doesn't tolerate any high criticism.

Believing in Christian teachings implicitly means you oppose Islam doctrine. Since of the two of us I'm the only one who actually follows one of these religions, perhaps you should engage you brain before insulting people simply for disagreeing with you.

[KaiserWilly]

I have said nothing about 'tolerant islam'. I agree that there are huge problems in Islamic countries, and some of those problems spill over to here. I just object to the idea of lumping all muslims together in one category and I don't understand what can ever be achieved by doing so. If you want to start solving problems, you need to help and go into dialog with those muslims who are prepared to do so, and not tar everyone with the some brush, for the very simple reason that tarring all muslims and muslim countries with the same brush will only make things worse.

That's naive, IMO.

First of all, you assume that the West is responsible for those countries being dysfunctional. That's absolutely wrong. Let's take the Shia vs Sunni divide, which is the root cause of the troubles in Iraq and Syria, for example. This is a civil war within Islam that nobody outside the Islamic world understands. IIRC, something to do about a relative of prophet Mo, or something like that.

What can the West do about it? Nothing. It's not our business to settle those disputes.

Moreover, we cannot start any productive dialogue with people who think you are an infidel.

Muslims must sort out their own problems. In the meantime, we have to do like the Israelis: disengage from the Muslim world and build a good fence.

[d000hg]

No way. I am sure you can find a nice Muslim guy in the Netherlands, but the fact is that 60% of them have a criminal record.

A fact you're backing up how?

I suggest some on here actually check facts rather than parrot this tolerant Islam stuff. The religious freedom reports by the US department of State are a good starting point.

Yes because the USA is totally objective when it comes to Islam, and hasn't made it the new Communism?