Universe fine tuned?

[d000hg]

Richard Dawkins covers this pretty well in one of his books. It's a question of probabilities.

So these "conditions for life" seem impossible unless you accept that the universe is so vast, so incredibly vast, that they are in fact possible.

That's a dumb argument and he should stick to his field. If you take the standard model of a single universe then it doesn't matter how big the thing is, the same 'fine tuned' constants are the same everywhere.

Multiverse theories change this but seem like fringe science so far - there are LOTS of ideas of increasing wackiness beyond the mainstream and nobody knows which are valid. Even String Theory is (unless things changed) still only in 'neat idea' territory.

[d000hg]

I will have to read that book.

I watched a programme that suggested the centre of the universe is a huge black hole (unfortunately I was under the influence at the time and didn’t get the jist of it).

That suggests the universe has a centre to begin with which isn't valid, I think.

[Platypus]

Dawkins suggests that in the same way we look around the universe wondering at it's fine-tunedness, imagine a puddle of water occupying a pothole in the road, saying to itself "my environment is perfect for me in every detail, I fit so well, it must have been created just for me".

My attempt to paraphrase: we are who we are and what we are because of where we are. We evolved to fit into this place.

[DodgyAgent]

There is so much that we simply don't know. That's why there are so many theories around, with and without deities. We don't have the knowledge to prove or disprove them.

I like the Pastafarian theory myself. At least that is based 100% on known domestic science.

My mother was a domestic science teacher I didnt realise that she knew so much.

[oscarose]

That suggests the universe has a centre to begin with which isn't valid, I think.

There is a theory that a massive black hole is indeed at the centre of the milky way.
HTH

[alluvial]

Recently, I’ve been questioning the origin of life and the universe and becoming rather unsettled. Following a lot of reading, I’m started to doubt my scientific roots and cynical view of religion and coming round a little to the idea that indeed there could have been a ‘creator’ because universal constants are so precise and very small deviations would have made the creation of life impossible.

Below is a summary:-

Fine-tuned Universe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

“The fine-tuned Universe is the proposition that the conditions that allow life in the Universe can only occur when certain universal fundamental physical constants lie within a very narrow range, so that if any of several fundamental constants were only slightly different, the Universe would be unlikely to be conducive to the establishment and development of matter, astronomical structures, elemental diversity, or life as it is presently understood.”

Any thoughts?

I don't think that the fact that the Universe is fine tuned to allow the creation of life does not imply that there has to be a directing influence that made it so.

I have thought about this in the past and it is easy to go around in circles with this. The religous types will point to various deities and say "There you go, they must exist". My mother in law took this line with me when I waxed lyrical about some amazing helectites that I had been privileged to see deep within a major cave system. But, I think, in reality, if the correct set of conditions occur to allow something to happen, then that thing will happen. If the conditions are different, then something else will happen. If the Universe had come into being with a slightly different set of fundamental forces, then we wouldn't exist and so we wouldn't be able to observe the universe. The fact that the universe is the way it is, means that we (and quite a few others out there) are around to see it. If the fundamental laws of physics are immutable, then no matter how the Universe started, life would pop up at some point, if they aren't, then we're just damn lucky that they happened to be set to what we have now.

Not sure if that makes sense, but then, does much in life make sense?

[alluvial]

There is a theory that a massive black hole is indeed at the centre of the milky way.
HTH

Without looking it up, I believe the theory is that there is a supermassive black hole at the centre of all galaxies.

[d000hg]

There is a theory that a massive black hole is indeed at the centre of the milky way.
HTH

If you don't understand the difference between the universe and the milky way, you shouldn't be in this discussion

[d000hg]

If the Universe had come into being with a slightly different set of fundamental forces, then we wouldn't exist and so we wouldn't be able to observe the universe.

That seems as self-referential an argument as the religious use though. That's just:

Q)Why is the universe here like this
A)Because it is

[Doggy Styles]

My mother was a domestic science teacher I didnt realise that she knew so much.

Did she teach pasta?