Are there any militant secularists on this forum?

[darmstadt]

I'm a secular militarist if that helps:

[KimberleyChris]

I wonder if Geoffrey Prout, many years later, ever rang around book shops trying to find a copy?

[wim121]

Still put Christian on forms.

I went to a nice CofE school as a kid where they taught us not to do to others what you wouldn't want others to do to yourself.

No unhealthy stuff like they teach in bible belt or anything but just honest, Christian values.

Would be more than happy for my Barry to attend somewhere similar.

I was raised by my mother who is still a practising CoE. While I'm not a Christian by choice and have a few issues with some outdated morals in the bible, I pretty much agree with the whole sentiment of your post.

Going to CoE and catholic schools in-between public schools, never did me any harm. As you said, nothing like bible belt teaching, but just ways to behave in society. It's actually very interesting how many of our laws and morality in society stems from religions. Personally I see school not only as an education in academia but a founding in social interactions to make them a well rounded adult, so we all want the best environment for youngsters dont we?

I hope you do get Baby Barry in to a good CoE school. In some areas, it seems like the only way to be able to keep kids out of gangs. I have some friends in Manchester that had to get on a waiting list pretty much as soon as their kid was born, just to have a chance to give him a good education.

Evil people don't wake up and say 'today I will do some evil'. Evil people wake up and say 'today I will make the world a better place'

Indeed.

Now there are some people doing evil things, deliberately to hurt others.

However as you said, evil people may not even realise what they are doing is evil. Some deplorable people arent even aware of their behaviour. Genocides and wars have started on the premise of a "good idea". Microsoft (yes Im comparing it to genocide) started as a good idea with friends in a garage and turned in to a dominating corporation that stole and monopolised their way to the top, which many dont see as morally wrong and just good business decisions.

[Spacecadet]

Some deplorable people arent even aware of their behaviour.

So true

[Goatfell]

It's actually very interesting how many of our laws and morality in society stems from religions.

Not really when you take the reasoning a step further, most societies have a fairly stable history in themselves, therefore their morality, ethics, culture etc stem from a time when religous organisations were part of the ruling establishment. As always, those in authority write the rules to benefit themselves and punish those who disagree (Inquisition anyone?).

It can often be seen that societies in which there has been great social revolution that religion has been divorced from the secular state appartus for that reason.
The French revolutionaries saw the Church as an ally of the monarchy so "wrote" it out of the Republics future, so also the fledgling USA, so fearful were they of the hatred and discrimination that they had left behind in Europe it again was a secular state, not non-religious, just irregligious.

The states which embraced communisim in all its forms were again secular to a high degree, though you would have troble getting a cigarette paper between the principles of communism and most religions...

[d000hg]

Evil people don't wake up and say 'today I will do some evil'. Evil people wake up and say 'today I will make the world a better place'

There's a good Terry Pratchett quote about that:

if a man has you at his mercy, then hope like hell that man is an evil man. Because the evil like power, power over people, and they want to see you in fear. They want you to know you are going to die. So they’ll talk. They’ll gloat. They’ll watch you squirm. They’ll put off the murder like another man will put off a good cigar. So hope like hell your captor is an evil man. A good man will kill you with hardly a word.

I think many/most evil people know they are hurting others, but just don't care. If they don't know what they do is evil, ARE they evil, or just misguided?

[wim121]

Meanwhile the charity PETA (People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals) warned that animal abusers such as the one in Penge often go on to make humans their next victims

Hahahahahaha quoting PETA in abuse and killing is the height of irony.

Look up "peta kills animals" as well as many other interesting resources with facts and figures. PETA are well known to fund terrorists and kill healthy animals as they have no interest in saving animals at all, all they want is to push their warped terrorists upon the world.

Religion does nothing at all for human behaviour and it never has done.

Hahaha a bit of a hyperbolic argument, but I'll play

PS: I disagree .....

Why did priests who are supposed to be abstinent and believe sex outside marriage and homosexuality to be sins abuse young boys?

Because vetting is not done properly in modern institutions. Priests are supposed to have no sexual desires at all and in a modern blasphemous world, that kind of conditioning outside of monasteries is impossible.

The Catholics and many other religions are hypocrites to the extreme. They even allow queers and women to be priests, which is against their doctrine. So if they allow those sorts in, what is the hope that they can be trusted to vet male priests to check they have no sexual desires?

Why are Catholics and Muslims so overrepresented in UK prisons?

First you must understand the notion that we dont have a good legal system at all. Innocent people have been found guilty, we have a legal system that makes crimes out of the most farcical of matters, we are plagued by propaganda and fear of terrorism and wrongly imprison brownies, we have an extremely matrifocal society that likes to label all men from birth as potential rapists and the voice of an objectionable woman as gospel and far from exhaustive but we interfere in religious and moral matters with governance that isnt required and perpetuate civil conflicts.

Once you understand that arrests and prosecutions in our country have nothing to do with crimes and instead is target driven like an outsourced call centre, then you will understand modern law.

Why are so many religious countries, like Mexico or South Africa or Pakistan, so violent?

Look at other peaceful areas like mongolia, tibet, parts of china and japan among others. Buddhism is prevalent and a guiding focus on many lives and perspectives. They enjoy for the most part peace.

As for Mexico, SA and Pakistan, they have problems that go well beyond religion and come down to governance and the corruption of it. Most still abide by not murdering each other or producing porn, however not everyone has a strong moral guiding focus within.

I propose to you another statement. Those who are religious or have faith for instance, have been shown to heal faster and have a better survival probability when studied in hospitals. They enjoy a peaceful life and their faith in a higher power, can even save their life, so far from a useless state of mind?

How come young girls in Conservative Uganda are at high risk of rape just walking to school?

I fail to see why you mention this?

Rape is not such a heinous criminal notion in the bible, or an abomination as I see it, or as much as society regards it nowadays. The bible acknowledges rape and doesnt condemn rapists to hell, only to death in some cases. Rape is not an abomination in the bible, merely a crime. This is why feminists have such an issue with the bible.

Deuteronomy is quite funny in fact of what it constitutes a crime and an abomination:

Abomination (cast thee to the depths of hell, etc etc): Cross-dressing:

22:5 The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.

Merely a crime: Rape of a woman who is not available:

22:25 But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die.

A question of honour, but not a crime, unlike modern rape cases would have you believe: One night stands/coyote uglies:

22:28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
22:29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

And far from belief, your own daughters rape can be honourable in the bible, if one is harbouring an angel or able to make such a claim then even sacrificing a woman to a hoard of rapists is fine. The rape of Dinah is a more disturbing concept of morality in the bible, but not the most!

MPs are far far more likely kiddie fiddlers than priests

If you vote conservative.

They have a higher rate of kiddy fiddlers and sex offenders than any other political party. Thai boys are quite common.

I can still remember all the words and tunes from the hymns we used to sing at scool assembly. Even though I never had any faith - it all sunk in and stuck

You and I both. Ughhh and I used to hate church in a granite lump upon the top of a cliff in winter, brrr!

Personally I would rather trust my priest than some politician.

Hahahaha

PToo right. But you will find alot more good people in church. I have posted a few times about the shortcomings of churchgoers. But they are on average far better people.

I beg to differ.

Organised religion such as CoE/Catholics are largely ignorant and havent read the whole bible and even if they can quote scripture, fail to appreciate the meaning of it.

As EO said earlier, those who are evil, dont even realise their sins. Church goers, as a generalisation are some of the largest ignorant subsets of society.

Becoming a better person, starts with shedding ignorance and becoming enlightened. The only pure faith I see capable of doing such a thing is Buddhism. While I do not subscribe to organised religion, I do have a strong connection with Buddhist ideals and see it as the only real free faith that should propagate the world.

[KimberleyChris]

I'm feeling all left out now...

Must be SOMETHING in my posts worth slagging-off?

(Mini-flounce)

[wim121]

I'm feeling all left out now...

Must be SOMETHING in my posts worth slagging-off?

(Mini-flounce)

Awwwwww!

Unfortunately (keep flouncing), I thought a lot of what you said was good sense.

Not really when you take the reasoning a step further, most societies have a fairly stable history in themselves, therefore their morality, ethics, culture etc stem from a time when religous organisations were part of the ruling establishment. As always, those in authority write the rules to benefit themselves and punish those who disagree (Inquisition anyone?).

It can often be seen that societies in which there has been great social revolution that religion has been divorced from the secular state appartus for that reason.
The French revolutionaries saw the Church as an ally of the monarchy so "wrote" it out of the Republics future, so also the fledgling USA, so fearful were they of the hatred and discrimination that they had left behind in Europe it again was a secular state, not non-religious, just irregligious.

The states which embraced communisim in all its forms were again secular to a high degree, though you would have troble getting a cigarette paper between the principles of communism and most religions...

Could we take this a step further again though?

Before, lets step back and even acknowledge that great civilisations like the ancient Egyptians, before Christianity, believed in gods and adored/revered/respected Pharaohs that were next to godliness.

Anyway taking this further, we have never had any society not influenced by some form of faith. Even in the absence of religion after revolutions, social trends towards figures of idolisation, even music stars, is a ritual variation of a faith.

Some argue, including myself, what the worl would be like with no religion, idolisation or anything else and how much more technologically advanced we would be, but at what cost? With ever changing hypothesis's in science, a society purely built upon such a premise would happen every time someone is proved wrong or an assumption challenged. Would we really be more stable in the absence of any guided faith to brainwash the masses of idiots in society prone to riot at the raised smelly armpit of an unshaved french woman?

[KimberleyChris]

"Unfortunately (keep flouncing), I thought a lot of what you said was good sense".


Not really cut out for CUK am I?

Never mind ... I'll go and wind-up P.J.Clarke later :-)