Question for socialists

[LisaContractorUmbrella]

Because of human nature. Unfettered free market capitalism is no more going to result in utopia than communism.

Ok, so what in the human psyche stops people from wanting to succeed?

[DodgyAgent]

You are talking about enterprise, not capitalism. Capitalists make a living through capital, rather that work. Most contractors make their living through work. They may be privileged workers but they are not capitalists.

You can split hairs on definitions but they/exploit and benefit from capitalism more than any group of people I can think of.

[Old Greg]

You can split hairs on definitions but they/exploit and benefit from capitalism more than any group of people I can think of.

It's not splitting hairs. It's understanding concepts.

See if you can think of capitalists, and then you can think of a group that benefits more.

[DodgyAgent]

It's not splitting hairs. It's understanding concepts.

See if you can think of capitalists, and then you can think of a group that benefits more.

I am thinking, but dont hold your breath

[doodab]

Ok, so what in the human psyche stops people from wanting to succeed?

Nothing, but there is a bit difference between wanting and doing. People are not created equal and in a world where "everybody is free to succeed" not everybody can or will.

[DodgyAgent]

Nothing, but there is a bit difference between wanting and doing. People are not created equal and in a world where "everybody is free to succeed" not everybody can or will.

What is success?

[doodab]

I agree. However, I think that many people in this country do naturally have a drive to be successful but it has been suppressed by a state driven guilt trip. I have give talks in schools about running a business etc and one of the questions I start with is 'someone tell me something they're good at' (with the idea of exploring the idea of how their talent could be used in business). Initially I was invited to private schools and this approach was great - the pupils were engaged, eloquent, opinionated and, even at 14/15, had a good idea of where their lives are going. When I tried the same approach in a state school the response was - it took me many minutes of questioning for one of the pupils to venture the opinion that no-one could tell me what they were good at as that would be considered to be 'arrogance' - her peers agreed with her. THAT is what is wrong with socialism - not the question of equality (let's face it, we're human beings - it's not going to happen) it's the demise of the individual in favour of the collective.

That isn't "what is wrong with socialism" it's what is wrong with a country where we still have a vestigial class system and where these kids simply don't have the role models in their everyday lives. A large part of the reason for that is that 90% of people who start a business fail, most people simply can't afford to take the risk, and those that do and succeed are more likely to send their kids to public schools while those who fail don't have the option. Ergo, the two populations are somewhat self selecting.

[doodab]

What is success?

Ask Lisa, she bought success into it. I'm simply arguing that unfettered capitalism cannot and will not result in the utopia it's advocates like to proclaim.

[doodab]

You are a contractor. You sell your services to whoever you want. You are one of the top earners in the world and you pay far less tax than people who are employed. Your value is almost entirely determined by market forces. You negotiate your own pay and conditions. There is no greater example of selfishness within the context of business or the workplace.

Dont get me wrong I approve wholeheartedly of this system of work and I think more people should be able to work in this way.

You can call it what you want, and whether it is a dogmatic view or not your are part of a privileged group of people.

One can only choose from the available options and in the case of contracting it's very much the lesser of two evils and the only sensible choice compared to a life of low paid wage slavery at the hands of large corporations. I'd much rather be steadily employed and well rewarded by an organisation I can respect but they seem to be few and far between.

I'm no arch socialist either but I think it's apparent that beyond a certain point additional "freedom" in the sense capitalists tend to use it rarely results in a better world and to argue otherwise is simply dogmatic. I've nothing against individual enterprise but all too often it's promotion is used as a cover to allow the powerful to act as they will without thought for the effect their actions might have on those less powerful. Until human beings can be trusted to self regulate their greed, consider the welfare of their fellow man and act in the best interests of society (i.e. never) some form of collective curb on the excesses is a necessity, whether that takes the form of regulation before the fact or a safety net to pick up the pieces afterwards.

[DodgyAgent]

Ask Lisa, she bought success into it. I'm simply arguing that unfettered capitalism cannot and will not result in the utopia it's advocates like to proclaim.

No one has ever argued that unfetterred capitalism is desirable or workable, nor has anyone said the same about socialism