So was the 2nd World War all for nothing?

[doodab]

I'll bet you £5 if you did a random sample of people in the pub, half or more would share that opinion

Are you saying that you base your opinion on what the stupidest half of the people in the pub think?

[BrilloPad]

Are you saying that you base your opinion on what the stupidest half of the people in the pub think?

It worked on WWTBAM

[sasguru]

The comments I'm reading in the European press, from comentators and politicians alike makes it clear that the UK has now crossed the line of acceptability and therefore there is sufficient anger now building up that will force Cameron's hand. Before it was seen as a debate and the UK's point was respected. Unfortunately the inevitable retaliation will cause even more resentment in the UK. There is no doubt Cameron has started a conflict and as with all conflicts there is a dynamic that you can't control. Either Cameron or the rest of them will have to climb down or else the UK's out. The majority in the UK now want out of the EU, and the opinion in the EU seems to be it's not worth holding the UK in any more.In other words it seems doubtful the other EU leaders are going to throw some crumbs Cameron's way. The German opposition leader summed it up when he said that the UK will probably now leave the EU in the medium term; and he will probably be the German Chancellor in 2 years time. I'm not necessarily saying the UK will leave the EU, but that the EU is not going to give the UK what it wants, and then Cameron has to deal with his Eurosceptics. Who knows what will then happen.

Being in the EU is the kiss of death. Either you're being bailed out or you're bailing out.
There is one country in the Euro area that shows how it should be done: Turkey.
Blistering growth rates (8% last year), they've built up their industrial base, they're exporting industrial goods.
In the 80s/90s Greece and Turkey had similar economies. After sucking at the Euro teat, Greece is bust and has no industrial sector.
Turkey which had to cope without EU aid is thriving, because they had to do it themselves.
The EU makes business lazy - there are easy pickings in Euro contracts.
But the future is East, that's where the young populations and markets are.
Britain should be brave, leave the EU, and concentrate on doing business in the East. It would force us to build up manufacturing again like Turkey has had to do.

[BlasterBates]

Being in the EU is the kiss of death. Either you're being bailed out or you're bailing out.
There is one country in the Euro area that shows how it should be done: Turkey.
Blistering growth rates (8% last year), they've built up their industrial base, they're exporting industrial goods.
In the 80s/90s Greece and Turkey had similar economies. After sucking at the Euro teat, Greece is bust and has no industrial sector.
Turkey which had to cope without EU aid is thriving, because they had to do it themselves.
The EU makes business lazy - there are easy pickings in Euro contracts.
But the future is East, that's where the young populations and markets are.
Britain should be brave, leave the EU, and concentrate on doing business in the East. It would force us to build up manufacturing again like Turkey has had to do.

Indeed at the moment Turkey is growing faster than Greece, but from a far lower level.

Turkey GDP Data & Country Report | Global Finance
Greece GDP Data & Country Report | Global Finance


Greece GDP per capita US$ 27,716
Turkey GDP per capita US$ 11.000

A big difference, the Greeks are on average more than twice better off than their Turkish neighbours.

[BrilloPad]

Britain should be brave, leave the EU

As long as Britain can still be in the EFTA then great.

concentrate on doing business in the East.

We have a great advantage with the English Language and Commonwealth connections. But China sees us as almost totally irrelevant.
We also need to cut red tape.
Though anyone decent will have already moved East. If it wasn't for the kids I would join them.

[sasguru]

Indeed at the moment Turkey is growing faster than Greece, but from a far lower level.

Turkey GDP Data & Country Report | Global Finance
Greece GDP Data & Country Report | Global Finance


Greece GDP per capita US$ 27,716
Turkey GDP per capita US$ 11.000

A big difference, the Greeks are on average more than twice better off than their Turkish neighbours.

That's my point. Greek GDP per capita includes the Euro subsidies that have made them lazy.
Take the Euro contribution out and what would be the Greek GDP?
In any case on current rates of growth (or contraction in Greece;s case)Turkey will overtake Greece in a few years, subsidy or not.

[AtW]

Take the Euro contribution out and what would be the Greek GDP?

About the same so long as they stick to euro as a currency to avoid big drop in GDP through currency depreciation. This is why countries who have problems now are very lucky they are in euro zone - otherwise dirty spekulants would have still attacked them but there would be nobody behind them to fight back.

[BrilloPad]

About the same so long as they stick to euro as a currency to avoid big drop in GDP through currency depreciation. This is why countries who have problems now are very lucky they are in euro zone - otherwise dirty spekulants would have still attacked them but there would be nobody behind them to fight back.

I cant really believe you posted the above. Or that I am replying. But the "dity spekulants", or market forces as the rest of us know them, will not just eat up the problem countries but anyone who stands behind them.

Do you still believe that the UK should join the Euro?

[AtW]

Soros and his followers are NOT market forces.

You don't really have a clue what real market force is, so here is proper example for you - Chinese cheap labour is a market force that shifted manufacturing jobs there. Same as India that got lots of outsourcing.

Now those are real market forces that are difficult to fight against - a handful of fund managers who stay in the west can be arrested within an hour of such decision taken, you can't do that to a market force.

Do you still believe that the UK should join the Euro?

I think so.

And it is very good time now to negotiate some real special deal too.

[doodab]

And it is very good time now to negotiate some real special deal too.