The Fourth Reich

[doodab]

Immigration is the key issue really. It is very difficult for Germany to attract immigrants because

• the German language is not taught worldwide, and practically impossible to learn as an adult
• nobody in India and China has heard of Germany, only the US and the UK thanks to movies
• Germans don't really like people from races that differ too much from their own, hence it's difficult to hold on to migrant workers

According to eurostat, Germany has more people born in a foreign country per head of population than the UK and more foreign citizens per head of population than the UK. For a country that struggles to attract immigrants they are doing rather well. Perhaps the fact they offer a free university education and skilled jobs has something to do with it?

The Goethe institute provides German language lessons all over the world, including in India and China. I know many adults who've learned German successfully.

Lots of Chinese have "heard of Germany", the Germans ship more stuff to China than they do to the US. Where do you think Chinese manufacturing companies buy many of their machines from?

The value of an economy ultimately amounts to the value of the people in it. The statistics that banks churn out are just statistics. What really matters is the people. That's especially true in a field like IT, which is highly quality-sensitive. In many situations it doesn't matter how many bodies or money you throw at a problem: unless you can get the right people to take an interest in your problem, the problem isn't going to get solved.

If a company or country manages to hang on to the highly skilled, productive people it will succeed. If it drives them away, it will fail. Simple as that.

This I agree with, and I think holding on to highly skilled productive people is a problem Britain will increasingly face in the future. The cost of living and raising a family in the UK is relatively high and that ultimately drives up the cost of skilled labour because you need to pay more to offer those people the same quality of life. That enables countries such as Germany that should theoretically be less attractive because of higher taxes to attract those skilled people.

I was talking to a lawyer friend at the weekend and he was saying how lucky I was to have skills that can easily cross borders, his particular legal niche is very UK specific and he's looking at several years of education and requalification so that he can get out with his family.

[darrenb]

Lots of Chinese have "heard of Germany", the Germans ship more stuff to China than they do to the US. Where do you think Chinese manufacturing companies buy many of their machines from?

Sure the Germans love to sell to China, but what I'm talking about is Chinese people coming to Germany to work. I don't see them. You go into a bakery in England, and the person serving you could be Indian, Arab, Chinese, African, or (rarely) English. You go into a bakery in Germany, and the person serving you is a German.

In England, the result of mass immigration is that English youths think they are simply too good to work in a bakery: there's more status in rioting and smashing up places instead. Or worse, they become real estate agents and recruiters and distort the economy further, driving up prices and driving down rates for real professionals.

So I think there's actually a healthy state of affairs in Germany: a country forced to serve its own needs with its own people. (OK, there's the Turks and Poles, but there aren't billions of them.) This stops the country from becoming dependent on foreign labour. Do the US and UK really think the Bobs will stick around forever? What happens is that they will simply pack up bags and use what they've learnt to found businesses in their own countries and enrich their own economies and buy big houses with maids and so on. And then the tycoons who hired them will pack up bags as well, and retreat to their villas in the Carribean. The only ones who are screwed are the middle class professionals who were born in the US and UK and are basically stuck in these hollowed-out economies for various good reasons.

[sasguru]

Sure the Germans love to sell to China, but what I'm talking about is Chinese people coming to Germany to work. I don't see them. You go into a bakery in England, and the person serving you could be Indian, Arab, Chinese, African, or (rarely) English. You go into a bakery in Germany, and the person serving you is a German.

In England, the result of mass immigration is that English youths think they are simply too good to work in a bakery: there's more status in rioting and smashing up places instead. Or worse, they become real estate agents and recruiters and distort the economy further, driving up prices and driving down rates for real professionals.

So I think there's actually a healthy state of affairs in Germany: a country forced to serve its own needs with its own people. (OK, there's the Turks and Poles, but there aren't billions of them.) This stops the country from becoming dependent on foreign labour. Do the US and UK really think the Bobs will stick around forever? What happens is that they will simply pack up bags and use what they've learnt to found businesses in their own countries and enrich their own economies and buy big houses with maids and so on. And then the tycoons who hired them will pack up bags as well, and retreat to their villas in the Carribean. The only ones who are screwed are the middle class professionals who were born in the US and UK and are basically stuck in these hollowed-out economies for various good reasons.

Are you an expat?
Germany is already dependent on foreign labour (look how they employ our third-rate expats ) and will become more so with their coming demographic timebomb.

[chef]

Chinese People in Germany

[Arturo Bassick]

Sure the Germans love to sell to China [snip]

Have to disagree with you on most points there.
If you can find a bakery in the UK then the odds are it is a family business and is staffed by family or local youths. Oddly that is the same in Germany. There are a lot more bakeries in Germany because they have not let super markets destroy local industries.
If you visit a Chinese restaurant in Germany then chances are you will be served by a Chinese.

You over simplify the lack of work ethic in the UK. Social dependency is as much to blame as is the benefits trap. It has taken generations to evolve and will take as long to dismantle.

There is a rapidly growing foreign work force in Germany. Lots of the menial work is done by foreign workers as with the rest of Europe. I work in the Aerospace industry and at the site I am on today we have 12 Bobs on site and a team in Bangalore who do test via remote access.

The UK looks like a basket case because it is far in advance of other nations (as it has ever been). As has happened in the past, the UK will find solutions (at some cost) and others will benefit from those solutions.

It is a far more complicated subject than any internet forum can hope to discus fully.

[Coalman]

Germany has a manufacturing base with which to pay the unemployed masses, the UK has postcards and cream tea. How's that going to work?

Again you generalise, UK has a manufacturing base, its not as big as Germany's but its bigger than most others. Actually ranked 7th/8th for exports.

Oh - I can't be bothered any more. Your grasp on reality is minimal at best, and your ability to put forward arguments based on fact, and provide proof of those facts is woeful.

If you are a scientist, god help your employers.

[Mich the Tester]

Again you generalise, UK has a manufacturing base, its not as big as Germany's but its bigger than most others. Actually ranked 7th/8th for exports.

Oh - I can't be bothered any more. Your grasp on reality is minimal at best, and your ability to put forward arguments based on fact, and provide proof of those facts is woeful.

If you are a scientist, god help your employers.

That's one of the best Sasguru impersonations I've read of late!

[sasguru]

Again you generalise, UK has a manufacturing base, its not as big as Germany's but its bigger than most others. Actually ranked 7th/8th for exports.

Oh - I can't be bothered any more. Your grasp on reality is minimal at best, and your ability to put forward arguments based on fact, and provide proof of those facts is woeful.

If you are a scientist, god help your employers.

WHS ++

[Mich the Tester]

Again you generalise, UK has a manufacturing base, its not as big as Germany's but its bigger than most others. Actually ranked 7th/8th for exports.

Oh - I can't be bothered any more. Your grasp on reality is minimal at best, and your ability to put forward arguments based on fact, and provide proof of those facts is woeful.

If you are a scientist, god help your employers.

I saw a programme at the weekend about Airbus in Filton and Broughton; quite impressive manufacturing going on there (aircraft wings) and obviously excellent training for local staff; one young woman had left school recently and had joined the heavy lifting (cranes and so on, not weightlifting) crew as an apprentice, saying all her mates were going to be hairdressers and she wanted to do something different; she's obviously going to get world class training and skills that could make her very employable all her life.

Yes, the UK has some very good manufacturing, but a lot of people seem to ignore it; it doesn't necessarily employ lots of people to carry heavy stuff around because so much of the work is automated; obviously there IS a lot of employment in controlling the processes.

[Coalman]

That's one of the best Sasguru impersonations I've read of late!

I know - I already feel dirty!