Oh dear: 8 out of ten tempted to vote for BNP...

[vetran]

I rather like living in areas with a racial mix although I find the numbers of Eastern Europeans troubling. An all white place with shops that close at 5:30 is a bit odd and dull.

FFS - next you will glad there are plenty of ethnic restaurants. Ever thought of moving to Notting Hill?

Brown's economic miracle is that he imports enough workers to keep the wages low and Tony imports / subverts enough voters to keep the new lie in power.

The fact people even consider voting for the BNP is scary but now it seems rather a logical conclusion given New Lies behaviour, anyone get the feeling we are watching a slow motion train wreck?

[Fungus]

Institutions, traditions and values are not trivia like shops staying open and varied restaurants.

I was thinking of important things, eg, our justice system which seems to be moving away from impartiality towards a more Islamic style where the victims have a say in sentence, or measures to change tax law to suit multiple Muslim "wives", arranged (read forced in some cases) marriages, or changes to our humane treatment of animals to suit the various religions that practice ritual killing.

Get enough Somalians and others from the horn of Africa and how long will it be before we get lobbying to allow female circumcision?

Funny how you focus on the trivial comment I made and ignore the significant bits. Anyway I think you are being paranoid and zenophobic. I don't see our institutions being subverted. I don't see the legal and judicial system tumbling.

And I don't see that our treatment of animals is as humane as you say. Battery farming of chickens is legal here. And anyway large numbers of dead chickens are imported from countries that have poor standards. So we are in effect off-shoring cruelty.

And the killing of animals here is often not done correctly and according to the rules. At least Halal killing is done with a sharp knife and is quick. (I think the same is true for Kosher meat.)

I think changes will be more subtle. We seem to have absorbed East African Asians with no problems. They were largely a business class i.e. educated and motivated with good cultural values. In fact immigrants often do well. Most of my friends have been from overseas (Korea, Taiwan, Cyprus etc).

I welcome immigrants and think they benefit us. But in modest numbers i.e. not 150K per year.

A couple of things do worry me.

There are large numbers of Pakistanis largely from poor backgrounds who form ghettos. Second generation immigrants from these groups sometimes do not speak fluent English. But most are fine and I've worked with quite a few.

I'm also worried by the number of Eastern Europeans. Russia has a problem with mafia-like gangs. Israel had huge numbers of East European immigrants in the 80's and/or 90's and a result also has trouble with criminal mafia gangs. If we are not careful we will end up with Eastern European criminal gangs here too.

Fungus

[Fungus]

I rather like living in areas with a racial mix although I find the numbers of Eastern Europeans troubling. An all white place with shops that close at 5:30 is a bit odd and dull.

FFS - next you will glad there are plenty of ethnic restaurants. Ever thought of moving to Notting Hill?

Brown's economic miracle is that he imports enough workers to keep the wages low and Tony imports / subverts enough voters to keep the new lie in power.

The fact people even consider voting for the BNP is scary but now it seems rather a logical conclusion given New Lies behaviour, anyone get the feeling we are watching a slow motion train wreck?

Why don't you focus on the one trivial statement that I made and ignore the significant points? Which were similar to the ones you made. Or are you trying to be patronising or confrontational?

[Fungus]

And to answer the central point, yes New Liar have made discussion of immigration off-limits. Anyone who suggests that it is not all milk and honey is branded a racist. I've seen that foul woman Beckett on a TV programme brand a Tory as a racist for simply mentioning the issue.

By closing off debate of a legitimate subject that is of concern to us, you open the door to the BNP.

[Bitbucket]

New rules now apply

With Labours new points system any new immigrants into the area should be , teachers , contractors ,medical staff etc. all very necessary to run the micro economy at lower cost than using a local who knows the true cost of living there

[xoggoth]

I focused on your first comment Fungus as it was the only one I disagreed with.

But that is half the problem of this debate. Too many people, and I do not mean you, trivialise the whole issue by making no point other than those like your first one by talking about exciting multicultural communities after an afternoon shopping in the West end or dining in Brick Lane. Or they will just tell you that the immigrants they know are nice people (why should they not be?) or trot out facts parrot fashion that they have learned but do not understand, eg that they contribute £500m more than they take in benefits (only relevant if compared to the UK average).

Then of course there are the usual allegations of xenophobia or racism against the most carefully restrained comments. In reality, if you look at the facts that are deliberately concealed, usually on the basis that telling the truth will invite predudice, anyone could make much more "xenophobic" comments without any lies or exagerration whatever.

Are you aware for example that well over half of all new Aids cases are from Africa and that most new infections within the UK are due to sexual contact with the same? All the money that was spent from the 70s onwards trying to get people to be careful, all that histeria about the dreaded epidemic, and now, simply because the problem is caused by immigrants, we are just supposed to keep quiet about it and say nothing? Because it would be racist or xenophobic to express concern would it?

I certainly would not want the cretinous BNP in power, all their daft ideas would do is drive out all the most successful among the migrants and minorities, the ones most of us would have been happy to have under a properly controlled immigration policy. The best way forward as far as minorities who are citizens is concerned is to do all possible to bridge the cultural gaps and try and get back to some common social conscensus. That will never happen while our society is being constantly changed by massive levels of immigration.

We also need to realise that this is not simply a white concern. In polls many minorities say they are alarmed at what is happening too, Muslim attitudes to asylum seekers for example are indistinguishable from those of the general populace. The unsuitability of too many newcomers affects them most of all and raises predudice because too many do not look beyond the surface. Drug gangs with links to Jamaica or Trinidad shooting each other becomes "black on black" violence. A few criminal youths from Muslim countries who rape women become "Muslim rape gangs"

I suggest people do not continue to put up with being blackmailed into silence on the subject of immigration by the usual shouts of racism or xenophobia at even the most carefully worded and restrained objections to what is happening. It does not work on me any longer.

[stackpole]

Net immigration equals:

Housing shortages
More crowded roads
Power shortages
Water shortages
Urban friction
Lower wages
Higher taxes

Net immigration does not mean that our pensions are paid for, because immigrants get old too, and when that happens we will need even more immigrants to pay for them as well. That is not a sound strategy, that is a crazy pyramid sales plan!

So, can someone tell me again why we need more people on this island?

[Fungus]

xoggoth: Yes, my East African Asian friends/colleagues are very much against the current mass immigration and might be described as racist by some were they white.

My comments on shopping etc are based on being raised in Leicester and having Asian school friends. I now live in an Asian area. Though the locals are poor, the level of violent crime and abuse is low (non-existent for me). Compare that to poor white areas I've visited where the children (~10 years old) swear at you and break into cars. But I've also lived in Brixton and the level of violent crime there is very high. And a friend who lived in Peckham was burgled three times. There does seem to be much more violent crime in black areas compared to Asian ones. (Not politically correct to say, but I think it's true.)

You make good points about Aids. As you know Aids is a very serious problem in Africa.

Fungus

[Fungus]

Net immigration equals:

Housing shortages
More crowded roads
Power shortages
Water shortages
Urban friction
Lower wages
Higher taxes

Net immigration does not mean that our pensions are paid for, because immigrants get old too, and when that happens we will need even more immigrants to pay for them as well. That is not a sound strategy, that is a crazy pyramid sales plan!

So, can someone tell me again why we need more people on this island?

It will help pensions. The problem is that we have an aging population due to the baby boom of the 60's and low fertility rates. Bringing in more young people means a more balanded population in 20 years time.

As others have said, massive immigration sustains the so-called economic miracle, which is in reality a sham for the reasons we have all given.

The chancellor is boasting about growth. Well yes, if you bring in large numbers of people the economy will grow.

This seems to be short termism by New Liar.

[xoggoth]

But you have not addressed Stackpole's point that this is an unsustainable solution.

In fact it is worse than he says, as not only do immigrants get old and need pensions, in time their own fecundity declines with increasing affluence. The birth rates in the very successful Indian community are lower than in the general population.

There is at present no obvious sign that increases in longevity are slowing and sooner or later we will have to tackle other solutions like working longer or increased productivity. (Less fecking useless civil servants maybe!)

If there is anything to the argument that we need younger people to produce more kids to pay for future pensions it is a short termist one and one that moreover only applies to immigrants with the skills to succeed. Unsuccessful ones will only create more resentful ghettos with high unemployment and crime rates who receive more from society than they ever contribute. Look at the government statistics. If anyone seriously thinks that certain communities with net benefit receipts 30% above average are an economic asset they need to go back to primary school.

PS Since you seem to be a bit sensitive at times, note I am only picking up on the point I disagree with.