Harperson proposes sexual discrimination in the workplace

[wim121]

Well either they are whining little trolls .....

Or my experience of contracting and perming in many different businesses isnt the norm. Ive known women even in TOP paid management jobs ...

[doodab]

I think the problem is the perception of these differences mean that for women to succeed in the workplace they have to behave like men.

And the alternative is what? To artificially structure the workplace in a way that requires men to behave differently i.e. more like women? What if the results of this process are ultimately detrimental for everyone?

Perhaps business is geared to perceived male strengths because of it's inherent nature, in much the same way that many caring professions are geared towards perceived female strengths. Should we also alter e.g. childcare practices to be more suited to "male strengths" even if the outcome is worse for children?

The sexual division of labour evolved because it benefited the group as a whole. No doubt things have changed since the stone age and there are some
entrenched social structures that might be better demolished but to take something that has been of great benefit and declare it evil on principle seems to be rather misguided.

[doodab]

My understanding of the point of the policy is that if the top two jobs were always held by members of both sexes the Labour party would be better run, more attractive to voters, and quite probably better at government if elected. That seems eminently sensible to me. Society is slightly more than 50% female and I think the government in an elected democracy should reflect that.

[mudskipper]

And the alternative is what? To artificially structure the workplace in a way that requires men to behave differently i.e. more like women? What if the results of this process are ultimately detrimental for everyone?

Perhaps business is geared to perceived male strengths because of it's inherent nature, in much the same way that many caring professions are geared towards perceived female strengths. Should we also alter e.g. childcare practices to be more suited to "male strengths" even if the outcome is worse for children?

The sexual division of labour evolved because it benefited the group as a whole. No doubt things have changed since the stone age and there are some
entrenched social structures that might be better demolished but to take something that has been of great benefit and declare it evil on principle seems to be rather misguided.

I don't think it is artificial. If you look at the things that women are traditionally supposed to be good at - organisation, planning, multi-tasking - they look to be good for business. I don't think men should behave like women, but nor should women behave like men. What is the 'inherent nature' of a board room (or parliament) that makes it more suitable for men? The culture of business has evolved round men over centuries, and that culture makes it hard for women to get the top jobs. And I think the fact that caring professions are amongst the lowest paid undermines the argument that feminine traits are equally valued by society. It's early days in terms of sexual equality and things will change, but only if we critically question the status quo. Only a hundred years ago, black people were considered intellectually inferior - the 1911 edition of Encylopaedia Britannica has an entry for Negro which says "Mentally the negro is inferior to the white... the arrest or even deterioration of mental development [after adolescence] is no doubt very largely due to the fact that after puberty sexual matters take the first place in the negro's life and thoughts." Shocking.

[mudskipper]

God I hate Harman, what's her problem? She wants to teach kids that all boys are potential rapists and all this crap.


I really hate how society is so geared towards women nowadays. For people like her to whine about this in ubelievable, Men have a far harder time nowadays socially and in the workplace. Instead of tackling sexism, past feminists started the trend of positive discrimination, making vendettas against men.



I think its quite sad in society;
- That I can walk down the street, with a smile and say "good day" to a random man, yet I have to put my head down and ignore a woman, just in case I get seen as a predator just for extending social courtesy (experienced that before).
- I have to avoid women walking through the same door as me, as if I dont hold it open, Im disgusting and not a gentleman, yet if I do, Im a predator that's about to rape them and insinuating they are incapable or too weak to hold a door open (experienced that too).
- If I see a child crying in the street because it's lost it's parent, I have to make the nearest female aware, otherwise people might accuse me of being a paedophile, ignoring the fact some paedophiles are married to female ones and often the female abducts them without people raising an eyebrow (seen other men approach a child and get treated like an abducter when all they did is point the child to a lost shelter and try to help them find its mother). It's sad that I have to walk away and ignore a lost child because of societies unfounded sexism.
- In the past if I see an attractive woman, I cant approach her easily (as from experience) there are crazy feminists out there that treat you like a predator just for being nice. However men are still expected to initiate contact/conversation, so how do I tell which one is a crazy or normal woman? In bars, you need a green/red badge system.
- In the workplace, there are some women you have to be very careful around and word everything in a very PC way. There are some women you cant even refer to as women because they throw a hissy fit, seriously!
- On the issue of harrasment, should a man misread the signals and stupidly chat up a coworker, they get fired. Yet in the past Ive been subjected to women groping me and generally being "hands on" without my consent at all. Yet if you ever complain, you get met with comments such as "men cant be harrased" or "I bet you didnt mind" and nothing gets done.
- Throughout all adult years, Ive overheard womens discussions in the workplace, clearly talking in an obscene way about men, a worse way then men talk about women down the pub. Nobody bats an eyelid. How can women be so cruel and talk about penis's, etc, yet if a man brings up the subject of breasts, they're a vile sex offender?
- It gets even worse when we discuss issues like rape. Now I hate rape and dont even like to see it in films and I sympathise deeply for any victim. Yet nowadays there are a lot of cases where women use it as a vindictive tool which diminishes real victims experience. Men still cant report it as it isnt taken seriously. One man I know reporting such an event got comments from people such as "it's impossible for a man to be raped". Same thing again, nobody bats an eyelid at such comments or sympathises at all. If I said the same thing about rape victim that was female, Id be strung up by my genitals on the nearest fence as an inhumane beast.
- Then social issues like housewives/househusbands. The latter is viewed as some guy jacking off to porn everyday, yet nobody insinuates the same thing with the former. Tell a guy to go and earn the bacon to buy a girl pretty things, everyone cheers in agreement, yet tell a woman to make a sandwich for her man and everyone boos him for such a bad joke, god help such a man if he is serious.

Anyway, rant nowhere near over, but the very subject annoys me. Any woman who DARES to complain about sexism makes me infuriated to the point I have to walk away before doing or saying something I might regret.

Women have a very easy ride in modern society and times have well and truly changed in the past two decades. Gone are the days of even IT being a boys club. Ive worked in many places with women as my bosses in IT. In finacial institutions as well for instance, most of the bosses were women. In short, that report is just further sexist crap. Yet what else would we expect from that vile excuse, not just for a woman, but a vile excuse for a human being.

Jeez, you've met some horrible women. Wonder what the common denominator was?

[norrahe]

But that's the point. Women should not have to prove their worth any more than men should. Why is it we (men and women) view female traits as negative? No-one wants their son to be described as 'a bit girly' but it's fine to say your daughter is a tom-boy - more than fine, it's a positive characteristic. Nothing wrong with a bit of banter, but it's the underlying, deeply ingrained attitudes that need changing. Agree that sueing is rarely the answer, but to dimiss women as 'whining' isn't doing any of us any favours.

Unfortunately the underlying attitudes aren't going to change overnight and until they do, most of us just get on with it.

Some parts of the city are more institutionalized than others, my industry is very much an old boys network and old fashioned to boot. Any female "characteristics" are not taken lightly. In order to get anywhere and get work you behave just like everyone else.

I may sound dismissive but "whining" doesn't get you anywhere, competence and hard work do.

[mudskipper]

Unfortunately the underlying attitudes aren't going to change overnight and until they do, most of us just get on with it.

Some parts of the city are more institutionalized than others, my industry is very much an old boys network and old fashioned to boot. Any female "characteristics" are not taken lightly. In order to get anywhere and get work you behave just like everyone else.

I may sound dismissive but "whining" doesn't get you anywhere, competence and hard work do.

Agreed, but that doesn't make it right. I think a lot of people believe there is equality, and will hold up successful women as proof, but in practice there's still a way to go. I think questioning the reasons why there are not more successful women is a valid thing to do. As with most things, there aren't any easy answers.

[doodab]

I don't think it is artificial. If you look at the things that women are traditionally supposed to be good at - organisation, planning, multi-tasking - they look to be good for business. I don't think men should behave like women, but nor should women behave like men. What is the 'inherent nature' of a board room (or parliament) that makes it more suitable for men?

There is a big difference between taking advantage of those "female" traits which are good for business (and which business already takes advantage of by employing women) and giving women more of a chance at the top jobs by reducing the emphasis on those "male" traits which are also (and perhaps even more) good for business.

There is an assumption in what you are saying that business favours these "male" traits over the "female" ones purely because it's a male dominated endevour, but it seems equally likely that business became male dominated because those traits are more useful (or more likely to get you to the top) in that environment. In fact, I would argue that if these more "female" traits alone were as desirable as is often claimed then women could start companies, staff them with women, and take the world by storm. The fact is that isn't happening.

The culture of business has evolved round men over centuries, and that culture makes it hard for women to get the top jobs.

It's hard for most men to get the top jobs as well. Most men don't actually have what it takes to make it to the top in that sort of environment.

I think the fact that caring professions are amongst the lowest paid undermines the argument that feminine traits are equally valued by society.

I agree. It would seem they aren't equally valued by society at large, and there are many other valuable and necessary jobs that don't attract huge remuneration. Is this because they aren't equally valuable or because those who do them are less able to convince others of their value?

[vetran]

Have a look at the traditionally female controlled departments and see how well it works.

HR - how often do people have anything good to say about them?

Reception / call management - almost pride in having no technical skills, first to complain and unlikely to solve their own problems.

Finance / bookkeeping - not good at big picture can be quite vindictive.

flame proof suit on.

but normally I find female managers are better communicators and at making you feel that you are doing it for your own good. Planning is normally better. Most male managers are extremely bad at looking after their staff and fly by the seat of their pants.

[mudskipper]

OK - so the view does seem to be that women are not successful in business, because women aren't as good at business as men. So seems I was wrong in my first assumption. Depressing.