Mid East Crisis

[Old Greg]

You're being a bit pedantic. I didn't really mean they were all out living in tents and herding goats. I'm referring to their sense of belonging and their identity.



I wouldn't call it land theft having been to Jerusalem and seen it in action. They certainly are trying to extend their territory, but they are normally engaged in offering absolutely stupid amounts of money (funded by expat Jews) to Palestinians for their houses and then shipping an orthodox family in.

Illegal settlements are different because technically the state does not approve of it, however will still offer state protection otherwise the settlers would just be strung up.

Wow, we seem to have a civil dialogue (not aimed at you, just re the topic). I don't think I am being pedantic but there we are.

You have a very rose-tinted view of settler activity in the occupied territories. A slightly old article here but one from a news source that would not be immediately identifiable as 'anti-Israel' FT.com / UK - Evictions gather pace in fight for East Jerusalem

An extract:

'The legal dispute over the homes emerged after Israel conquered East Jerusalem. Using Ottoman-period property deeds that the families' current lawyers say were forged, two Jewish groups in 1972 claimed they were the owners of the land and demanded rent -payments.

A decade later, the then-lawyer for the families did not contest the Jewish groups' ownership claims, instead agreeing that the families would keep their homes as long as they pay rent. Most of them still refused to pay and today claim they were not told of the details in the agreement, which serves as the legal basis for the attempt to evict them.

While their lawyers now intend to challenge the authenticity of the property deeds, the evictions are gathering pace.

Maher Hanoun, a 51-year-old food salesman, chain-smoked as he sat on a white plastic chair in the shade of an olive tree and stared at the house in which he had grown up. "If the Jews have the right to take back their land here, why can't we get back the property my family lost in 1948?" Mr Hanoun said, adding he had little faith in the Israeli legal system. "This is a political issue, so our best hope is pressure on Israel from the US."'

[Churchill]

You're not the only one who's been to Jerusalem. I've worked there. Twice.

Not only have I worked in Jerusalem, twice. I was there during the "Orange" shirt demonstrations.

[Incognito]

Wow, we seem to have a civil dialogue (not aimed at you, just re the topic). I don't think I am being pedantic but there we are.

You have a very rose-tinted view of settler activity in the occupied territories.

I suppose we each have our own views. Two wrongs don't make a right, but when Jordan occupied East Jerusalem they bulldozed the Jewish Quarter and expelled all the Jews. You could say that Israel is simply trying to take back the city.

Don't forget, everyone always seems to refer to the Nakba and castigate Israel for their part in this, however the same number (possibly greater) of Jews were expelled from their homes as well.

Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim lands - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[lilelvis2000]

Apparently the unrest in Libya is the work of AlQaeda. BBC News - Libya: Gaddafi blames Osama Bin Laden for protests

Now, I wonder what the USA response to that is gonna be? Considering that Osama also wanted to put Saddam out.

[Incognito]

Not only have I worked in Jerusalem, twice. I was there during the "Orange" shirt demonstrations.

Amazing place Israel. Tel-Aviv is such a great city. Spent a week there partying and then followed it up with a week climbing over the history out in the desert.

People thing of the Orthodox and crazy settlers when they think of Israel, Tel-Aviv couldn't be any further from the truth. Such a liberal city.

[lilelvis2000]

I suppose we each have our own views. Two wrongs don't make a right, but when Jordan occupied East Jerusalem they bulldozed the Jewish Quarter and expelled all the Jews. You could say that Israel is simply trying to take back the city.

Don't forget, everyone always seems to refer to the Nakba and castigate Israel for their part in this, however the same number (possibly greater) of Jews were expelled from their homes as well.

Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim lands - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

My take is that Israel is supposed to espouse Western Values - democracy, moral, ethics, rule of law etc... But when you fall back on the eye-for-an-eye argument you're right back into religious dogma.

[Old Greg]

I suppose we each have our own views. Two wrongs don't make a right, but when Jordan occupied East Jerusalem they bulldozed the Jewish Quarter and expelled all the Jews. You could say that Israel is simply trying to take back the city.

Don't forget, everyone always seems to refer to the Nakba and castigate Israel for their part in this, however the same number (possibly greater) of Jews were expelled from their homes as well.

Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim lands - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The history is clearly screwed up. Start from Israelite domindation of Philistines, Roman expulsion of Jews, fall of the Ottoman Empire, 1947, 1967 or whatever, but...

It cannot be acceptable to keep the Palestinians in the condition (political, legal, material) that they are and to continue to support illegal settlements in occupied territories. What we see is a triumph of military power and nothing more.

[Incognito]

My take is that Israel is supposed to espouse Western Values - democracy, moral, ethics, rule of law etc... But when you fall back on the eye-for-an-eye argument you're right back into religious dogma.

Absolutely agree with you, the whole fact that it does aspire to Western values is why I am Pro-Israeli. I wasn't using an example of the destruction as 'an eye for an eye', more the big boy simply taking back what was his.

However that gets back to the argument that it never was Israeli land in the first place.

It's an argument that won't be solved. Both sides will still fight about it, neither will be happy with what they see as a capitulation.

[lilelvis2000]

The history is clearly screwed up. Start from Israelite domindation of Philistines, Roman expulsion of Jews, fall of the Ottoman Empire, 1947, 1967 or whatever, but...

It cannot be acceptable to keep the Palestinians in the condition (political, legal, material) that they are and to continue to support illegal settlements in occupied territories. What we see is a triumph of military power and nothing more.

I sometimes wonder if the past 60 years is all some kind of chess play by Israel. They occupy a great deal of land - but can't annex it. Obviously if they expand Israel it no longer is a Jewish majority state - and the Arabs will have equal rights and perhaps the majority of MKs. So that's not a solution. Another solution is to make the arabs lives miserable with force..that worked somewhat until the Arabs began blowing themselves up. The third try is with concessions and that's going horribly wrong.

The Israeli's won't give up that land and will not allow a Arab state to form. This is gonna be crap for a loooong time me thinks.

[minestrone]

Amazing place Israel. Tel-Aviv is such a great city. Spent a week there partying and then followed it up with a week climbing over the history out in the desert.

People thing of the Orthodox and crazy settlers when they think of Israel, Tel-Aviv couldn't be any further from the truth. Such a liberal city.

"The gay capital of the Middle East"