Prisoners having a vote....

[Peoplesoft bloke]

Don't see it as a big issue really. No end of tub thumping going on from mindless Daily Hate types "would you like a child molester to be voting?" No. I'd prefer a child molester to be dead, but voting ain't gonna make a lot of difference is it? Unless they were put in there on a first offence they likely have voted a few times during their molesting career anyway.

[MayContainNuts]

It's a difficult situation. How many of your civil liberties should you lose?

I spent a little time inside a while back(and even though no election) to be excluded from part of society(which is what prison does) is part of the punishment.

I happen to agree that if you break the law then you lose civil liberties. Surely that's the point?

[NotAllThere]

With the size of some prisons, it could change the mariginality of a seat if prisoners are suddenly enfranchised.

[shaunbhoy]

The right to vote is a perk that has been defended with blood over the years. However, with rights come responsibilities. One of those being that you will comply with the laws of the society you seek to be a member of. Abuse those responsibilities and you lose the perks for the duration of your punishment. Perfectly fair, and only morons would argue against that.................which I see they are doing.

[RichardCranium]

The right to vote is a perk that has been defended with blood over the years. However, with rights come responsibilities. One of those being that you will comply with the laws of the society you seek to be a member of. Abuse those responsibilities and you lose the perks for the duration of your punishment. Perfectly fair, and only morons would argue against that.................which I see they are doing.

The right to vote is a perk that has been defended with blood over the years. However, despite this, only morons would argue those rights should be taken away from some groups of people.

Why just prisoners?

What about people on remand?

What about people released early on licence?

What about people on a home detention curfew?

What about people on a suspended sentence?

What about people who have been fined?

What about those subject to a court order?

What about those with ASBOs?

What about those on the sex register?

Time-served paedophiles or murderers?

What about those with a driving ban for causing death by driving? Drink driving? Dangerous driving? Driving without due care and attention? Speeding? Parking offences?


They have all broken the law. Do you include all of the above groups? And if not, why not?

[shaunbhoy]

The right to vote is a perk that has been defended with blood over the years. However, despite this, only morons would argue those rights should be taken away from some groups of people.

Why just prisoners?

What about people on remand?

What about people released early on licence?

What about people on a home detention curfew?

What about people on a suspended sentence?

What about people who have been fined?

What about those subject to a court order?

What about those with ASBOs?

What about those on the sex register?

Time-served paedophiles or murderers?

What about those with a driving ban for causing death by driving? Drink driving? Dangerous driving? Driving without due care and attention? Speeding? Parking offences?


They have all broken the law. Do you include all of the above groups? And if not, why not?

Stop trying to muddy the waters with a whole bunch of irrelevant "what-ifs", and make some semblance of an attempt to stick to what is actually being mooted. There's a good chap. That way you won't come across as such a pompous numpty.


HTH

[RichardCranium]

Stop trying to muddy the waters with a whole bunch of irrelevant "what-ifs", and make some semblance of an attempt to stick to what is actually being mooted. There's a good chap.

They are not irrelevant to me.

Yes, I am playing Devil's Advocate, but that is because it has struck me as quite random, arbitrary and anachronistic to not be able to vote because of being in prison.

Being in prison is no longer the sole way of punishing people. So why only pick on people in prison?

I want to understand why people think it is right to remove prisoners' right to vote; in exploring that then a logical and rational argument can be explored and applied.

For example, if it is because "they broke the law so they lose their rights" - why does it not apply to everyone who broke the law? Why are their other rights not removed, why just the right to vote? So that argument does not stand up - being in prison is not on its own a valid reason to remove someone's right to vote.

If it because "prison means a serious sentence", well people are let out on licence because the prisons are full. This means people on licence or on remand are still being punished, they just happen to be outside. Do they lose the right to vote?

And if the argument is "they are criminals, they don't deserve rights", when do you stop being a criminal? Why should they get the right to vote when their sentence is over? They're criminals, aren't they? Surely, like in the good ole US of A, they should lose their right to vote for life?

What about the yoofs of 18/19/20 who nick 100s of cars and, instead of being sent to prison, are sent on a working holiday somewhere sunny to teach them some respect. Why should they continue to vote when the next person in the dock for the same thing goes to prison?

If it because "they might swing the outcome of a result" then that means they should not vote for fear of their opinion. They will not cease to have those opinions when outside prison, so that argument does not work. That is a just an argument that "peope who have committed a crime lose the right to vote for life".

And if you lose the right to vote for committing a crime, why not other rights?

And at what level do you set the bar? What kind of crimes apply and which don't? And why?

ISTM that preventing prisoners from voting is no longer a meaningful act.

[MarillionFan]

Prison effectively takes people out of society. They are excluded, guarded, 'at her Majesty's pleasure'

There are plenty of other forms of punishment. But the one of exclusion should be an ultimate sanction. If found guilty, and if in prison, you lose freedom & the vote.

If served, on remand(awaiting trial), on a register, tagged etc then you are not fully excluded from society. Hence you can vote.

I would think even a five year old could understand that.

[shaunbhoy]

They are not irrelevant to me.

They are irrelevant because this ruling does not encompass them. Should a subsequent one start to embody them then indeed Public Opinion may change. Even I may begin to agree with some of what you say.
However, there are a number of things that apply here.

1) If we go down the route of allowing prisoners to vote then who is going to foot the bill for all the attendant costs of either setting up a Polling Station within every facility, or escorting them all to their local one? The taxpayer, that is who. And why should the hardworking people of this country be expected to foot the bill for this when they are expected to cover the costs of their own trip to the Polls out of their own pocket?

2) If the prison population's voting patterns are anything like those of the General Public then we would be arguing over a "right" which only about half of the non-incarcerated bother to exercise. Hardly seems worth it. And certainly should not be argued over to simply line the pocket of some sleazy ambulance-chasing brief or his errant clients.

3) I did not take up arms in my youth to defend the liberties and rights of my fellow UK citizens only to have some jumped-up unelected Mittel-European Bureaucrat ride a coach and horses through the wishes of a sizeable majority of our democratically elected sovereign legislators on this and other issues.

4) Last but not least, I suspect that a main principle being applied with this ruling is a reminder that a custodial sentence is indeed meant to be some form of punishment. These days, for a whole raft of reasons, they are not handed out all that readily and the chances are that to get one you have had to flout either a very serious law, or quite a number of minor ones before finally getting one. Long overdue in many people's book.

Once the criminal underclass start getting the message that Prison is not simply a change of bedroom then the sooner their numbers might start to drop.

[Ignis Fatuus]

Why should they have the vote? They are not members of society!

Yes they are. Unless you want to steal the word "society" and use it to mean "club that I get to set the membership rules of".