Birmingham: The best place to be a muslim

[suityou01]

Define 3rd world. India and China were so defined in the 60s and 70s but I'm not sure they can be defined as such now.
And I see long-term advantages in having large populations from both countries here in the UK as those countries (parts of them anyway) become rich.

Hindus and Chinese people seem to integrate well anyway, so I'm not sure of Xog's tribal point.
It does seem to me (having lived in a Muslim area, Tower Hamlets) to be a religious problem in that the insularity and the assumed superiority complex of Islamic young men (that deep down is an inferiority complex) is to blame.

UK and USA.

HTH

[sasguru]

Agree to some extent but the religion is a factor because it impedes integration. Some Imams quite actively resist it. Check out even moderate sites like Islamonline and you will see questions about whether it's ok to socialise with non Muslims. It indicates something quite wrong that they should even be asking in my view.

Other groups do not share these problems to that extent. In my limited experience, Blacks are friendlier and more inclusive than we are and mix well if allowed to. There are also promising signs in attainment and some popular black public figures do a lot to change peoples' views.

If we could only stop the influx of unsuitable migrants that sours perceptions I think blacks already here may be accepted a lot faster than we imagine. It is culture not colour that really matters.

Agree with most of that.
It is clearly a cultural or religious problem since Indians regularly come near the top of the educational attainment tables (after the Chinese) and Pakistanis/Bangladeshis are regularly bottom, yet one would say they are the same race.

[TykeMerc]

Define 3rd world. India and China were so defined in the 60s and 70s but I'm not sure they can be defined as such now.
And I see long-term advantages in having large populations from both countries here in the UK as those countries (parts of them anyway) become rich.

Hindus and Chinese people seem to integrate well anyway, so I'm not sure of Xog's tribal point.
It does seem to me (having lived in a Muslim area, Tower Hamlets) to be a religious problem in that the insularity and the assumed superiority complex of Islamic young men (that deep down is an inferiority complex) is to blame.

All valid points and where people integrate there are few issues and plenty of plusses.

I'm not convinced it's a religion problem as such, but more that the Islamic problem causers tend to be from a very tribal and uneducated area of the Indian sub-continent, I think it's cultural. Muslims from other areas and countries tend to behave very differently.

[Pondlife]

snip...
Chinese people seem to integrate well anyway, so I'm not sure of Xog's tribal point.

I'm sure this is true of the younger generation (and getting more so) but I'm not so convinced for their parents.

I worked for chinese people for maybe 5 years as a teenager and they have a tremendous work ethic and attitude to business but I would not say that this was a particularly integrated work place - I was the only "gwai lo", a term used often but without malice. Ok, so we're going back 20 odd years now so maybe my experience is no longer valid. However, I know that there are 'chinese only' casinos, bars etc in the city and that some of the chinese supermarkets have different prices (as I can still read the numbers )

[xoggoth]

And I see long-term advantages in having large populations from both countries here in the UK as those countries (parts of them anyway) become rich.

Hindus and Chinese people seem to integrate well anyway, so I'm not sure of Xog's tribal point.

Agree with both of those points. I wasn't really thinking of either of those among my tribes. Legal Chinese and Indians do come out well in most stats and in any case, separate cultures are not important as long as they do not conflict with ours in major areas. Who cares if Sikhs/Hindus want open air cremations as long as they do it where it does not bother anyone else?

PS I'm sure you nicked that 1st point from my blog.

[sasguru]

Agree with both of those points. I wasn't really thinking of either of those among my tribes. Legal Chinese and Indians do come out well in most stats and in any case, separate cultures are not important as long as they do not conflict with ours in major areas. Who cares if Sikhs/Hindus want open air cremations as long as they do it where it does not bother anyone else?

PS I'm sure you nicked that 1st point from my blog.

I haven't read your blog recently

Anyway I am aware that living in London, in a middle class mileu, it seems that integration is a done deal.
A certain stratum of people here are far more classist than racist.
This year I will attend Indian/Danish and Greek/Chinese weddings and both will be greater than the sum of their parts, I'm sure.
However having lived in the North for one year a while ago, I realise that this level of integration is as far away for some as it was in the 50s.

[RichardCranium]

Quite regardless of the pros and cons of this particular group does it not make very little sense to introduce unnecessary frictions into a nation?

So stop stirring it.

[xoggoth]

Oh, ok RC since you ask nicely. Now you just need to convince 40 million+ other people.

You see how pointless these pious exortations are? Base policy on realities and what human nature really is, what nature itself actually made it, not somebody's idea of how it should be and societies might start to work a bit better. Politics should be like building a practical machine, only do what works.

There is actually no reason why we cannot do this and still have a decent world. Help out the third world but maintain a separateness that avoids conflicts of interest. Proceed at a rate that people are comfortable with and not at rates set by egotistical leaders who want to be remembered when they are dead.

If there is one ideology I would gladly exterminate, it is not Islam or socialism but idealism.

[lilelvis2000]

I haven't read your blog recently

Anyway I am aware that living in London, in a middle class mileu, it seems that integration is a done deal.
A certain stratum of people here are far more classist than racist.
This year I will attend Indian/Danish and Greek/Chinese weddings and both will be greater than the sum of their parts, I'm sure.
However having lived in the North for one year a while ago, I realise that this level of integration is as far away for some as it was in the 50s.

The problem in the north is too many people, not enough jobs. Racial tensions are high and almost inbred into both sides.

[xoggoth]

Anyway I am aware that living in London, in a middle class mileu, it seems that integration is a done deal.
A certain stratum of people here are far more classist than racist

Education removes many problems but in a way it creates more. The educated elite, like most contractors, see no problem with immigration because most migrants they know are English speaking, well educated and qualified like themselves. Better off people have no need for crime and, generally, do not need to look for meaning in a crappy life by turning to extreme beliefs.

They fail to understand the problems of ordinary people in poorer areas where the cultural divide and problems generally are far greater. All part of classism you mention, we will ever get rid of that unfortunately.