Hamas and the power of democracy

**AtW** · 31 January 2006, 18:42

Originally posted by DodgyAgent

I predict that they will now be forced to behave responsibly by doing as they are told and using EU/US aid as a means of feathering their leaders nests.

That would have been good, but I think they won't bulge. What I found interesting is that donations from Islamic countries were actually much more modest than EU.

**Fungus** · 31 January 2006, 19:54

Originally posted by DodgyAgent

fascinating to see this lot of murderous thugs in power. They now have democratic accountability to their people. Whatever they do from now on will have a popular mandate behind them. If they send suicide bombers to Israel they will be carrying out acts of war thus completely legitimising retaliatory action. They have responsibility!! Dedicating themselves to wiping out Israel; why will the EU and the USA give them any aid?

I predict that they will now be forced to behave responsibly by doing as they are told and using EU/US aid as a means of feathering their leaders nests.

So much for principle.

Clare Short was on R4 yesterday. She said that Israel has a right to exist and we should nuke the terrorists. Okay, she didn't. You can guess her response.

This is a tough one. I don't agree with the murder of innocents by suicide bombers. And the murder of Jews overseas is appalling. The Palestinians are a disorganised rabble with numerous armed groups, little centralised control, and no real strategy beyond murdering anyone and everyone in Israel, Jew, Arab or whatever. Many of those murdered in bus bombs are Israeli Arabs. Ironic. Israel is a modern democracy, with courts, a legal system, world famous universities etc. But it is massively supported by America (~ $3 billion per year cash, plus investments in Israel can be written off against tax).

Nor do I agree with the systematic destruction of the people in the occupied territories by Israel. 1/3 of Palestinian children are pshchologically disturbed as a result of having seen their friends and relatives murdered by Israeli soldiers, people dragged out of bed at night, bullets from Israeli guns flying through school windows during school lessons etc. Until recently Israeli fighters flew over civilian areas at supersonic speeds. The boom broke windows and terrorised the civilians, traumatising children and causing pregnant women to miscarry. Despite the Oslo accord Israel has been expanding settlements, building highways across Arab territory, installing road blocks preventing movement of Arabs, with systematic humilation of Arabs at checkpoints, but allowing the free passage of settlers, forceably deporting Arabs from their homes so that settlers can take the best land (often high up or near water). Or the firing of missiles from aircraft into civilian areas to kill terrorists but with innocent civilian deaths. I could go on and on about the abuses. There's not a lot of difference between terrorism from armed militias and that from governments.

And you wonder why Palestinians hate Israelis and support suicide bombers?

It also helps to know the history of the area. There were almost no Jews in Palestine in 1900. But Britain administered Palestine from 1917, and allowed Jews in, against the wishes of the Arabs. Countries that knew nothing of the area voted to give Jews a homeland in ~1947. Probably out of guilt for the Holocaust. Huge numbers of Jews migrated to Palestine after WW2, partly because noone wanted them. Many of those who have served in Israels government such as Menachem Begin were ex-terrorists. There were numerous terrorist attrocities committed by Jews prior to and during the formal establishment of Israel including the massacre of an entire village of Arabs (slaughtered with machine guns and grenades) and the forced evauation of Arabs from what was to become Israel (as documented by Jewish organisations). Terrorism played a huge role in Israel's foundation.

The whole area is a feckin mess and sadly Britain and its duplicitous behaviour in the early part of the 20th century must take a large part of the blame. (Balfour Accord anyone?)

Both sides need to act responsibly. Part of the problem is the continuing expansion of the settlements by Israel which goes against the various peace accords and which tells the Palestinians that Fatah were useless. So they go to the extreme and elect the fruitcakes.

Fungus, in boring mode.

**sappatz** · 31 January 2006, 21:20

palestinians

who gives a **** about palestinians in general. i dont give a damn about a dead palestinian. arabs are our enemies and they claim it themselves. why give them aid ?

**AtW** · 31 January 2006, 21:23

Originally posted by sappatz

arabs are our enemies and they claim it themselves. why give them aid ?

If they have nothing to lose then its much easier to recruit sucide bombers there. If per capita income in Palestine was anywhere decent, they had warm houses, cable TV, the Net, then maybe they'd prefer to play Counter-Strike where they can play it again after every round rather than blow themselves up for real.

**NoddY** · 31 January 2006, 21:43

Originally posted by sappatz

who gives a **** about palestinians in general. i dont give a damn about a dead palestinian. arabs are our enemies and they claim it themselves. why give them aid ?

who gives a **** about jews in general. i dont give a damn about a dead jew. jews are our enemies and they claim it themselves. why give them aid ?

Has a different connotation when the boot is on the other foot doesn't it? And people wonder why the Arabs are pi$$ed.

**Fungus** · 31 January 2006, 22:03

Originally posted by AtW

If they have nothing to lose then its much easier to recruit sucide bombers there. If per capita income in Palestine was anywhere decent, they had warm houses, cable TV, the Net, then maybe they'd prefer to play Counter-Strike where they can play it again after every round rather than blow themselves up for real.

Quite. Not only do the Israelis create hopelessness, the armed Palestinian groups feed off the alienation and stoke up hatred. And Israel then becomes more paranoid and repressive.

Maybe we should give weapons to both sides, stand back and wait. Then sweep up the mess and let Disney set up Holy Land. It'd make a fortune.

**AlfredJPruffock** · 1 February 2006, 09:33

It also helps to know the history of the area. There were almost no Jews in Palestine in 1900. But Britain administered Palestine from 1917, and allowed Jews in, against the wishes of the Arabs.

Uncertain as to whether this is factual Fungus, but was the above scanario due to a deal between the USA and the UK, the deal being that the US would enter World War 1 if the UK established Israel ?

Back on the thread, it is remarkable to see the polarisation of Middle East Politics since the Iraq War, far from stabilising the Middle East after removing Saddam, we now have an extreme reactioanary government in Tehran, fundamentalists in power in Iraq and now Hamas in control in Jeruslalem

**DodgyAgent** · 1 February 2006, 10:43

Originally posted by AlfredJPruffock

It also helps to know the history of the area. There were almost no Jews in Palestine in 1900. But Britain administered Palestine from 1917, and allowed Jews in, against the wishes of the Arabs.

Uncertain as to whether this is factual Fungus, but was the above scanario due to a deal between the USA and the UK, the deal being that the US would enter World War 1 if the UK established Israel ?

Back on the thread, it is remarkable to see the polarisation of Middle East Politics since the Iraq War, far from stabilising the Middle East after removing Saddam, we now have an extreme reactioanary government in Tehran, fundamentalists in power in Iraq and now Hamas in control in Jeruslalem

I thought Jesus was a Jew, and he was there in year 0000

**Churchill** · 1 February 2006, 10:50

Originally posted by DodgyAgent

I thought Jesus was a Jew, and he was there in year 0000

Nah mate, he was a christian!

Hamas and the power of democracy