So much for going down the plumbing route

[AtW]

There is a futility to debating with you AtW that I learnt long ago.

You are not answering question - if plumbing market was competitive then why prices are not falling? Why services are not considerably better than they were 5 years ago?

Look at some of the competitive markets - IT or booze - prices are falling there and you can buy far more now for £100k then you could 5 years ago. This is the sign of competitive markets and I can't see that in plumbing and legal profession.

And yes, non-competitive markets should be regulated as otherwise consumers are exploited by parasites who have no incentive to improve.

[DodgyAgent]

You are not answering question - if plumbing market was competitive then why prices are not falling? Why services are not considerably better than they were 5 years ago?

Look at some of the competitive markets - IT or booze - prices are falling there and you can buy far more now for £100k then you could 5 years ago. This is the sign of competitive markets and I can't see that in plumbing and legal profession.

And yes, non-competitive markets should be regulated as otherwise consumers are exploited by parasites who have no incentive to improve.

I am agreeing with you AtW, so I have no question to answer. You are quite right despite the onset of complex IT and technology solutions to help plumbers shove their arms down the toilet they dont seem to be getting it do they? They must be collaborating with each other to abide by a standard set of prices and shoddy services. It is quite true you should these days be able to buy twenty plumbers for the price of one 20 years ago.

One thing I never figured out though, and perhaps you can help me, is quite why, no matter how many contractors I have out, they never get any cheaper, despite the fact that I am buying them in bulk !!!!

[AtW]

They must be collaborating with each other to abide by a standard set of prices and shoddy services. It is quite true you should these days be able to buy twenty plumbers for the price of one 20 years ago.

The question of what exactly leads to non-competitiveness of the plumbers market is an interesting one, but there is no point trying to answer it until we agree that this market is not competitive in the first place.

I take it you disagree that the market is not competitive?

One thing I never figured out though, and perhaps you can help me, is quite why, no matter how many contractors I have out, they never get any cheaper, despite the fact that I am buying them in bulk !!!!

Bullsh1t and you know it. What was a DBA contractor price in 2000? How about Web Designer's price back then and now?

[DodgyAgent]

The question of what exactly leads to non-competitiveness of the plumbers market is an interesting one, but there is no point trying to answer it until we agree that this market is not competitive in the first place.

I take it you disagree that the market is not competitive?

The market is clearly not competitive. I agree with you it needs those experts in govt to sort it all out.

[DodgyAgent]

Bullsh1t and you know it. What was a DBA contractor price in 2000? How about Web Designer's price back then and now?

I thought that you were applying the same rules to buying booze and technology as buying IT people or plumbers. Now again correct me if I am wrong.

Now we all know that technology essentially "eats itself" by constantly finding ways to deliver technology cheaper and more efficiently through the use of technology (offshoring has been made possible by virtue of technology for example), and the use of technology has made the manufacture of booze a lot less costly. Now correct me if I am wrong but surely plumbers are not subject to the same market forces (how does an Indian plumber don his rubber gloves and shove his hand up your S bend from several thousand miles away in Bangalore for example?) as technology and booze manufacturing.

[DodgyAgent]

Bullsh1t and you know it. What was a DBA contractor price in 2000? How about Web Designer's price back then and now?

I thought that you were applying the same rules to buying booze and technology as buying IT people or plumbers. Now again correct me if I am wrong.

Now we all know that technology essentially "eats itself" by constantly finding ways to deliver technology cheaper and more efficiently through the use of technology (offshoring has been made possible by virtue of technology for example), and the use of technology has made the manufacture of booze a lot less costly. Now correct me if I am wrong but surely plumbers are not subject to the same market forces (how does an Indian plumber don his rubber gloves and shove his hand up your S bend from several thousand miles away in Bangalore for example?) as technology and booze manufacturing.

PS I will have you know that I get my plumbing dirt cheap, because I have mates who are plumbers

[The Master]

Thank heavens for that, Dodgy. Yes, I agreed with AtW a couple of pages ago (although it seems like a couple of years). It is quite clear to even the most retarded that all plumbers nationwide are co-operating in maintaining a monopoly over the supply of quotes for small, barely worth taking the time to do jobs. It is clearly outrageous that advances in technology have not allowed plumbers to slash their costs to the bone when quoting to replace a small section of water damaged carpet. Can't they use the web to deliver the solution or something? I mean, processors are much better than they were 20 years ago so surely plumbers should be as well?

They are clearly taking the mick and the only answer is to have the government "do something" about it.

[DodgyAgent]

Thank heavens for that, Dodgy. Yes, I agreed with AtW a couple of pages ago (although it seems like a couple of years). It is quite clear to even the most retarded that all plumbers nationwide are co-operating in maintaining a monopoly over the supply of quotes for small, barely worth taking the time to do jobs. It is clearly outrageous that advances in technology have not allowed plumbers to slash their costs to the bone when quoting to replace a small section of water damaged carpet. Can't they use the web to deliver the solution or something? I mean, processors are much better than they were 20 years ago so surely plumbers should be as well?

They are clearly taking the mick and the only answer is to have the government "do something" about it.

I reckon they should bring Stephen Byers back, he would know what to do

[AtW]

Now correct me if I am wrong but surely plumbers are not subject to the same market forces

Why a lot of local people work for a lot less money, I mean just above minimum salary? Why young solicitors get their time charged for £100-120 per hour, while they actually earn no more than that in a day? Where do the money go?

How is it possible that such profitable businesses (difference between main cost - humans and selling price) don't get high competition? In most competitive markets people fight over 2-5% margine points, yet here we can see situation with 80-90% margins, I mean FFS, what is it - gold mine or something?

Legal market is certainly not competitive - this is due to artificial laws that allow those who are in the game (partners of legal firms) to maintain their position unchallenged.

I don't know, perhaps there is something similar that helps plumbers get away with ridiculous rates.

Here is another example - couple of years ago shower heating thing broke and our landlord paid for it to be replaced (good side of renting), it was done and work took no more than 40 mins - I asked out of interest for cost to the landlord and the guy said it was £230, of which parts were £60 quid --- £170 profit for an hour of work? FFS!

[The Master]

My advice to you, AtW, is to retrain as a plumber and fill yer boots. You may as well be a part of the International Plumbers' Conspiracy rather than a victim of it.

I get my plumbing done for next to nothing as well, as my father-in-law is one.