Onanists

[xoggoth]

Absolutely. Said that on here many times. We should have reformed the poor laws instead. Seriously. Locally administration, parish level. At parish level they can distinguish the deserving poor from the rest, a huge faceless beurocracy can never so that.

[Lucifer Box]

Absolutely. Said that on here many times. We should have reformed the poor laws instead. Seriously. Locally administration, parish level. At parish level they can distinguish the deserving poor from the rest, a huge faceless beurocracy can never so that.

That was one of the arguments forwarded in this evening's Hecklers.

Dundee, the hypothesis was not so [that more people would be worse off]. It being that (for example) high benefit levels are a disincentive to achievement. Have a listen to it (it's only 30 minutes long). I did not agree with all the arguments forwarded but some interesting points were made, particularly relating to what welfare provisions existed before the welfare state was introduced.

[xoggoth]

The distinction that used to exist, in the Elizabethan period and until the 1900s was between the deserving and the undeserving poor. The former were children, the aged and the disabled, and they received help which, by the low standards of the time, was not too ungenerous.

Now we only look at need and never deserts. That destroys inventive among the populace at large and long term probably does no good for the recipients. Every problem we have in life is primarily our own, not everybody else's. First we should be expected to do what we can to help ourselves; only if we try our best and fail should we expect to depend on others.

bloggoth: More failures and more retreats - Welfare reform

[threaded]

What I find wrong is that with this so called welfare state thousands of pensioners, who have worked hard and paid their taxes all their lives, die alone and in poverty.

So called "primitive" cultures honour their elderly.

[xoggoth]

The welfare state has a lot to do with that threaded. It encourages us to look to the state for things that in more natural societies would be our responsibility. When we have paid so much throughout our lives to care for perfect strangers it's hardly surprising.

[TGAOTU]

What I find wrong is that with this so called welfare state thousands of pensioners, who have worked hard and paid their taxes all their lives, die alone and in poverty.

So called "primitive" cultures honour their elderly.

Spot the next one heading towards his twilight years...

Don't worry about your old age Threaded, fat bastards usually die of a heart attack way before their dotage!

[Rebecca Loos]

You haven't quite got the goodwill seasonal spirit in you, TGAOTU, have you?

[TGAOTU]

You haven't quite got the goodwill seasonal spirit in you, TGAOTU, have you?

Humbug!

[Fungus]

Spot the next one heading towards his twilight years...

Don't worry about your old age Threaded, fat bastards usually die of a heart attack way before their dotage!

It's nice to see two old friends exchanging friendly greetings. It restores my faith in humanity.

Fungus

[Fungus]

The welfare state has a lot to do with that threaded. It encourages us to look to the state for things that in more natural societies would be our responsibility. When we have paid so much throughout our lives to care for perfect strangers it's hardly surprising.

There's a lot of truth in that. I feel that the welfare state is essential as is state education and the NHS. The problem is how to target the deserving needy. But as you say there is more to it than that. If people feel that whatever happens, there will be someone to pick them up off the floor, then there is no incentive to save for the future, or improve their education level etc. A lot of Brown's taxes are disincentives e.g. free carehome if unable to pay, not free if able to pay. And you also have to consider those who through no fault of their own suffer. Women often do not build up large pension pots because they stay at home to look after children, or take a lower paid part time job, so that they can do 'home duties' e.g. collecting kids from school.

One problem is that the current pension system is inefficient. Current NI contributions go to pay current pensions, rather than being invested as per private pensions. Perhaps a compulsory private pension scheme, with credits being given for the unemployed/sick etc?

Alternatively we bring back the poor laws, and the work house, force paupers to wear a large P on the front of their clothes, deport them back to their parish if they stray and so on.

Fungus