Brown loses Sun newspaper backing

[sunnysan]

Savaged

I'm watching BBCNews this morning and have seen the Sun political editor sitting next to Margaret Beckett who looked like she was about to savage him. Much fun.

Getting savaged by MB? Not much fun in that.

Actually IMHO that is a very scary prospect.

If I had a choice I woudl rather be savaged by Gollum

[sasguru]

There is absolutely no doubt that standards have declined.
There is plenty of evidence for this from lecturers of 1st year students at good unis who find they have to spend a substantial amount of time on remedial work that would not otherwise be necessary.
I know this because it's in the foreword of all the maths books I have to read for my upcoming MSc - the authors apologise because the first chapters are all revision of A-level concepts that should be known (and would have been 20 years ago), but that the authors cannot assume to be known.

[dang65]

These are all massively negative views.

It's true that many people are going to university now who would never have had the opportunity before. That is because there are now a lot more places available. Just as if there was a sudden huge increase in IT jobs then employers would have to hire and train people who would not have been considered for those jobs before. When there are few places then the very cream can be selected; when there are many places then the intake standard is lowered. That doesn't mean that the new recruits are incapable, just that they need to be brought up to the standard. It may well be that many of them will never reach that standard. Maybe we will have to scale down universities in future, but hopefully it will be to a level somewhere in between the old elite and the new "anyone can do it" levels.

At least they tried, and I'm sure many previously unacceptable students have shone at university. It's the old glass half full, glass half empty thing.

Modern society requires higher technical and intellectual ability from more people, and that is what the education system is striving to provide. It's a huge challenge, especially if, as suggested above, humans are evolutionally divided into the intellectually capable and not intellectually capable. But there are many intellectually capable people who were never given the opportunity to prove themselves before. Some will fail. That's understandable isn't it? Better to try to improve our national stock of highly educated people than just sit back and hope for the best. That's why education was provided for everyone in the first place, because it was foreseen that people could be educated, whatever their social background, and that would be for the national good.

What is the problem with that?

[sasguru]

Actually IMHO that is a very scary prospect.

Not really. It would be like being savaged by a very ugly, dead sheep.

[sasguru]

These are all massively negative views.

It's true that many people are going to university now who would never have had the opportunity before. That is because there are now a lot more places available. Just as if there was a sudden huge increase in IT jobs then employers would have to hire and train people who would not have been considered for those jobs before. When there are few places then the very cream can be selected; when there are many places then the intake standard is lowered. That doesn't mean that the new recruits are incapable, just that they need to be brought up to the standard. It may well be that many of them will never reach that standard. Maybe we will have to scale down universities in future, but hopefully it will be to a level somewhere in between the old elite and the new "anyone can do it" levels.

At least they tried, and I'm sure many previously unacceptable students have shone at university. It's the old glass half full, glass half empty thing.

Modern society requires higher technical and intellectual ability from more people, and that is what the education system is striving to provide. It's a huge challenge, especially if, as suggested above, humans are evolutionally divided into the intellectually capable and not intellectually capable. But there are many intellectually capable people who were never given the opportunity to prove themselves before. Some will fail. That's understandable isn't it? Better to try to improve our national stock of highly educated people than just sit back and hope for the best. That's why education was provided for everyone in the first place, because it was foreseen that people could be educated, whatever their social background, and that would be for the national good.

What is the problem with that?

I see your point. But the problem is that A-levels have been dumbed down to such an extent that unis cannot distinguish between the best students anymore. That means the best students are not being catered for. And whether Labour like it or not, its the elite that make a difference in any country.

[sweetandsour]

What is the problem with that?

In the years to come I am sure that the generation that end up paying for this socialist experiment the country could not afford, in higher taxes but with disappointing prospects are going to be so grateful.

[d000hg]

While it's evident that education has not improved enough to justify the pass-rates in exams, modern teaching is _very_ different particularly for the under-6 age range and has changed rapidly over the last few years. It seems one area that changes are good, rather than just shoving in new tests or re-arranging the exam procedures every year.

I'm sure I am not the only one married to a reception teacher?

[BoredBloke]

I see your point. But the problem is that A-levels have been dumbed down to such an extent that unis cannot distinguish between the best students anymore. That means the best students are not being catered for. And whether Labour like it or not, its the elite that make a difference in any country.

Infact it is worse than that. Given 2 students with the same set of grades the uni will look at the school in an attempt to determine who the best candidate was. This favours the public school over the comp - not something I thought was a NL goal


"when there are many places then the intake standard is lowered"

Has that happened? No!
Why? because the exam was dumbed down so that the students had better grades! The requirements in terms of ABC have if anything risen because the exams are too easy. But we also have a lot of people accepted onto courses who should not be there who subsequently drop out (taking their debt with them) simply because the uni gets paid per bum on seat. There are also more students taking the degrees that are seen as being easy. Look at the rise of media studies and the fall of the traditionally hard subjects like Maths

[Sysman]

The depressing thing is The Sun quite possibly has more overall sway on voters than the rest of the more serious papers put together.

And Clare Short has just been on Radio 2 slagging the Sun and Murdoch off.

Which prompted me to grab a screen shot of the Sun's front page.

[BoredBloke]

And Clare Short has just been on Radio 2 slagging the Sun and Murdoch off.

Which prompted me to grab a screen shot of the Sun's front page.

Which she wasn't doing when they turned to NL