Brown loses Sun newspaper backing

[minestrone]

I would question the sanity of anyone who claims to be educated still supporting labour at this point in time.

[BoredBloke]

But that's not really an objective way to judge the state of an industry. I mean, does anyone have a partner that doesn't come home and spend half an hour raging about the stress-outs in the office? My missus used to work as a guide for the National Trust and you'd think she was in charge of air traffic control at Heathrow, FFS.

It's about as objective as you basing the education system on how well you think your kids are doing at school.

[dang65]

So an exam which is almost impossible to fail!

No, an education system which successfully prepares students to the standard required to pass a difficult exam.

I mean, what is the pass rate for people taking a commercial pilot's exam, for example? I don't know, by-the-way, but I would hope that it is quite high, because what would be the point of constantly testing people if only half of them were at the standard to pass? The criticism would be put on the training academies, surely. They wouldn't say, "Look, the pilot's exam is obviously too difficult, let's make it easier."

What's happened with schools is that the standard of education has been raised to a level where most the students who take the exam are actually capable of passing it (even if it's at a low grade). I don't see why that should be so suspicious.

[dang65]

It's about as objective as you basing the education system on how well you think your kids are doing at school.

No, that's my point. It isn't the same. If my kids were the only ones doing well at school then, yeah, I would have doubts. But it's obvious that schools nationally are producing excellent results and well-educated pupils. If the education system was in the mess which you portray from your personal experience of a stressed department head then we would be seeing it reflected in exam results and in the ability of young people. It's not happening. Obviously with some exceptions. I'm not claiming that this is some kind of Utopia, like.

[BoredBloke]

No, an education system which successfully prepares students to the standard required to pass a difficult exam.

I mean, what is the pass rate for people taking a commercial pilot's exam, for example? I don't know, by-the-way, but I would hope that it is quite high, because what would be the point of constantly testing people if only half of them were at the standard to pass? The criticism would be put on the training academies, surely. They wouldn't say, "Look, the pilot's exam is obviously too difficult, let's make it easier."

What's happened with schools is that the standard of education has been raised to a level where most the students who take the exam are actually capable of passing it (even if it's at a low grade). I don't see why that should be so suspicious.

Utter rubbish! You cannot seriously be claiming that the standard of teaching alone has moved the A level pass rate from the 60% in the 80's to 97% through better teaching. The exams have been dumbed down. If you want more people over a hurdle, lower the hurdle. That is how they did it.

[TimberWolf]

Utter rubbish! You cannot seriously be claiming that the standard of teaching alone has moved the A level pass rate from the 60% in the 80's to 97% through better teaching. The exams have been dumbed down. If you want more people over a hurdle, lower the hurdle. That is how they did it.

It's worse than that Jim, because a much larger percentage of people are staying on and taking A levels now than were in the 80s.

[The Lone Gunman]

No, an education system which successfully prepares students to the standard required to pass a difficult exam.

The exams are not difficult. My next door neighbour is head of department at our local Uni and has been in the Uni business for quite some time.
They used to be able to distinguish the best students by their exam results, now they cant.
Your argument is that the kids are now all good enough however his evidence is damning.
He also tells me that where they used to spend 3 years teaching they now spend the first year making sure all the students are up to a standard required for a degree education.
In his opinion the curiculum and the exams have been dumbed down.

The fact that so many kids can now go to Uni inevitably means the Unis will not be able to teach to the high standards they used to. The degrees that they issue are less and less valuable to those who gain them and that devalues the degrees of those of us who gained them years ago.

Your kids are the victims here. They may well be doing well. They may well get a degree.
When a degree is the minimum qualification to flip burgers what use is it?

Just look at the job adds. You see more and more requiring a first, some even stipulate from which Uni. The dumbing down is forcing the top of the food chain to find different ways to distinguish the wheat from the chaf.

[BoredBloke]

I picked the 80's because my maths teacher explained how it worked when I did my A Levels. Back then the A level was self regulating. About 40% had to fail and the grades were set on percentages - so A would only be given to the top say 2.5%. The distribution of scores would essentially follow the same normal distribution and chopping that 40% at the end maintained the A Level status.

This was changed - it was done on 'fairness' but in reality the spread of the scores would essentially be the same year on year. Now you have teachers teaching kids pass the exam rather than the subject. It doesn't matter that they don't understand why they do what they do or what the answer actually means, just remember it is correct and put it in. That isn't learning a subject it just a memory test.

It's because of the dumbing down of the exam itself and teaching in this way that has lead to an A grade at A Level not being the exclusive mark it once was and why the top universities now struggle to differentaite between students as all of them hold straight A's.

[dang65]

Utter rubbish! You cannot seriously be claiming that the standard of teaching alone has moved the A level pass rate from the 60% in the 80's to 97% through better teaching. The exams have been dumbed down. If you want more people over a hurdle, lower the hurdle. That is how they did it.

So presumably we can expect a plummeting pass rate soon after the Tories get in and correct this scandalous exam rigging?

It's true that the method of testing has been changed as well, with course work and modules being used in the assessment as well as traditional exams. There's no denying that that has had an impact. The question is, whether that is "cheating"? Personally, I don't think it is at all. It's more like real life. It was always absurd to spend years teaching people and then assess them based on a one hour exam in the middle of the hayfever season.

That will have had a big effect on pass rates, but claiming that the exams themselves have been made easier is daft.

[sunnysan]

Nl

Kudos to Dang65 for vehemently defending the Labour government but,

Labour inherited an economy on the up have presided over the biggest economic boom, and have consequently presided over the biggest public spending increase of any European state. Are you trying to say that the improvement (if any) to public services is proportional to the amoutn spent on it?

The NL friends of the working class MPS have proved to be as big a bunch of profligate spenders and abusers of public office as the toffs you deride. I hate abusers of public office but I hate hypocrites more(Yes Polly T that includes you).

At least the toffs or tories you refer to are not one step away from full blown Marxism like our "hero of the modern world" Pict currently (mis) ruling the country.

NL seek to control people through socialism not uplift them. Their brand of socialism is an insiduous form of state control which permeates all facets of life.