85 Sharia courts in the UK

[The Lone Gunman]

Xog, you're presenting a reasonable argument (Though you do appear to harbour a passionate dislike for Islam). I reckon most of the points you raise are valid points, but equally we (The Christian west) weren't so different not so long ago, and I believe most of these arguments highlight the worst parts in Islam, not necessarily the norm in most Islamic cultures..

The difference is that the Koran is regarded as the word of god as passed to Mohammed (pbuh) and as such is sacrosanct (sp?) to Muslims and is the basis of law in all Islamic countries. The Bible (NT) is a collection of the teachings of Jesus often in parable form and by way of example. What Christians did in the past in no way reflects the teachings of Christ.
The Koran actually says "strike off the hands of thieves" or "give 2/3rds part to your son and 1/3rd part to your daughter". The Hadith is a collection of teachings where Mohamed (pbuh) or his descendants gave guidance on what certain parts of the Koran meant. The Koran just says women should dress modestly. It was about 4 generations later that an Imam actual defined modesty.
I shar Xoggies view that Islam as practiced by the radicals is closest to the Koran, and we must therefore expect that with time all Islamic states will go that way. The Koran itself allows for a milder form of Islam, but there are limits to when it can be so.

CB on the other hand, well he's just an out and out knob who talks bollocks all day long, and posts some of the stupidest tulip I've seen put up on this board in the 6 years I been posting, and is someone who pretty much everyone on this board just wishes would **** off a bother someone else.

Amen to that brother.

[snaw]

I shar Xoggies view that Islam as practiced by the radicals is closest to the Koran, and we must therefore expect that with time all Islamic states will go that way. The Koran itself allows for a milder form of Islam, but there are limits to when it can be so.

I don't know enough about the Koran to make that kind of call, (I have read it). I also have a great mate, who went to a Muslim school here, and who's brother is an imam. He's extremely bright and very knowledgeable about the Koran and he would totally disagree with that statement.

But even if it is so, I don't think it's ever going to happen here, and to me it's just scaremongering to suggest that somehow we're imminently about to turn into an Islamic state.

I believe in the separation of religion and state, so I'd never be to up for arguing for an Islamic state anywheer, but at the end of the day if the majority in a country want that then it's their choice to make.

Many countries, not just Islamic ones, have laws we find reprehensible. But we never see anyone posting about China, or Russia, or indeed India amongst others on this board ...

[The Lone Gunman]

I don't know enough<snip>...</snip> amongst others on this board ...

Pretty much agree with all that. I would differ in a few places but not worth getting into a fight about it.

[NotAllThere]

The Bible (NT) is a collection of the teachings of Jesus often in parable form and by way of example.

Which can only be said by someone who has never read it.

The bible (NT) is a collection of books and letters:

Four accounts, in quite different styles, of the birth, life, death and resurrection of Jesus, talking about his teaching, which comprised parables, and explanations of those parables, but also what he did, and how various power groups interacted with him.

One account, written by one of the gospel writers, of what various apostles and other people did after the resurrection

13 letters written to various christian groups and individuals, by Paul
1 letter of unknown authorship addressed Jewish christians in Rome

2 letters from Peter
3 letters from John
1 letter from Jude

And the book of Revelations.

[NotAllThere]

Then again, you don't often see selfdetonating Chinese, Russians or Indians.

Though the use of suicide bombers was quite prevelant among the christians in lebanon.

[xoggoth]

Safer? Actually that's not necessarily true about Dubai, do a bit of checking, but even assuming it is we could have safer streets in London by rational methods:

a) Bringing up kids with as much emphasis on duties as on rights.

b) Proper control of immigration, not simply to keep out the criminals (the nature of much street crime in London is a matter of Met statistics, not a BNP or Daily Mail invention) but to foster a positive belief in society, to make people feel they have a culture they belong in and which they therefore feel a responsibility to.

c) Having a more sensible justice system, probably a much harsher one where recidivists are concerned. Chances should be for those prepared to take them.

Japan has these qualities and has one of the lowest crime levels in the world despite very low levels of religious belief. Irrational religious beliefs create impediments to pragmatic solutions.

***********
More on topic: Not any time soon maybe but I don't want an Islamic state ever, even long after I am pushing up daisies. I don't want to see the Western world which has evolved so much, despite all the downsides, being dragged backwards into nonsense like that.

In any case, we do not have to be a Muslim state to find our laws influenced by Islam, it is happening now, hence Cyberman's post. Or should we not care about female citizens of the UK because they are Muslim? Other areas where concessions have been made or seriously considered:

a) Tax/benefit law. I don't know what became of it but HMRC was seriously considering taking account of polygamy a couple of years ago.

b) Forced marrriage. The government was considering banning this awful practice but backed down over fear of offending Muslims.

c) Halal food. If we must eat meat I want animals killed humanely. There should be no exceptions on this for Muslims or Jews.

d) Female circumcision. Not a single prosecution despite the thousands carried out every year. Not an official concession to Islam as it is not an official Islamic practice (not discouraged either - see Islamonline) but given the furore over child abuse when any middle aged white bloke has a minor grope do you seriously think this inaction would continue if the main perpetrators were not in fact Muslim?

e) Islamic banking. I don't see any problems with that, seems harmless, but it is another example.

[BlackenedBiker]

85 Sharia courts in the UK????

Isn't Sharia that Columbian pop tartlett with breast like mountains.

[The Lone Gunman]

Which can only be said by someone who has never read it.

The bible (NT) is a collection of books and letters:

Four accounts, in quite different styles, of the birth, life, death and resurrection of Jesus, talking about his teaching, which comprised parables, and explanations of those parables, but also what he did, and how various power groups interacted with him.

One account, written by one of the gospel writers, of what various apostles and other people did after the resurrection

13 letters written to various christian groups and individuals, by Paul
1 letter of unknown authorship addressed Jewish christians in Rome

2 letters from Peter
3 letters from John
1 letter from Jude

And the book of Revelations.

How does this sort of tulip happen?
I write a short sentance precising my view of the NT.
Some tit jumps in saying I must not have read it?
Had I realised that to express an opinion I had to write a 10,000 word essay on the details of the bible I wouldnt have bothered.

Is it not a collection of the teachings of Jesus?
Did Jesus not use the parable form.
Did Jesus not teach by way of example.

[BlackenedBiker]

How does this sort of tulip happen?
I write a short sentance precising my view of the NT.
Some tit jumps in saying I must not have read it?
Had I realised that to express an opinion I had to write a 10,000 word essay on the details of the bible I wouldnt have bothered.

Is it not a collection of the teachings of Jesus?
Did Jesus not use the parable form.
Did Jesus not teach by way of example.

Blessed are the Greek

Blessed are the Cheese Makers.

Just remember we are all individuals.....

[Alf W]

Nobody's mentioned the existence of Jewish Courts (Beth Din?) have they?

What's the big deal anyway? If people of a certain religious persuasion want to mutually settle civil disputes according to their own cultural values then let them get on with it. It's not doing the rest of us any harm. It's not like these courts are sentencing people to stonings or having bits of them chopped off.