Rejecting a contract

[BoredBloke]

I'm not trying to get on your case Tony, but ISTM that your costs are not excessive. That's what it costs to work away. Geneva can be ludicrous but one can get round it: and you already have, you're doing well. It would cost you the same in Frankfurt or Amsterdam.

I realise that - the cost of Genva isn't really my point neither is the travel or the quality of the hotels at the end of the day

OK you don't like going to France, and you don't like the travel and the time away: I sympathise but that's what it's like. You call your hotel a tuliphole, but I'm afraid that I don't sympathise there. It's just a dorm, staying in a "good" hotel, or even a standard business hotel, is a luxury and I don't pay for that in my work phase. Is it more or less clean? It is cheap? That's about it for me, when I'm away at work. That's not my life, it's where I work for my life.

I appreciate that also and I have stayed in some dives also

Your rate is not good for working away, it's a survival rate. It's not Geneva that is your problem, nor your home life.

and this is where I was starting from. Yes I was pointing out that the expensive hotels take their toll but it's the initial rate which was the issue and which has only got worse since the pound took 10% out of the after tax earnings.

If you only took it for survival (and I would right now - what's the job spec? ) then have courage and stick it out. OTOH if you thought it was a decent rate based on info received, and it turns out that it isn't: do you have an exit plan?

I didn't at the time but I'll need to now! My point is, I took the job and yes I made a bad decision regarding the rate based on the bollocks the Swiss guy at the UK agancy told me. 1000 chf for a furnished flat in Geneva etc. With that in mind, 9000 chf per month - 1000 for the flat would not have been a problem. The problem is the agent basically lied and he had a reputation with all of the contractors he placed there. All said not to trust him and all said that the rate was too low - but I decided I ballsed up and I'd stick it out to the end. After a month the client indicated they wanted to extend my contract and I was happy to do so provided I got an increase. The agent straight away agreed a 79 chf increase per day but also increased the rate of my colleague maintaining the differential - even though we do the same role. I had a few other home based issues to deal with which made it look like I probably wouldn't see the extension but that looks like it's been resolved, so I decided that I would do the extension if my rate was on a par with my colleague - provided I don't get any better offers! This is where we are at now. The agent is bringing up things like the client is shocked and concerned that I'm raising this at such a late stage and I suppose to them it doesn't look very professional. My argument is simple - the rate is too low to

1 - cover my costs

2 - justify living and working away

The client has just lost one contractor who stated that the rate was the issue.

[pzz76077]

I realise that - the cost of Genva isn't really my point neither is the travel or the quality of the hotels at the end of the day



I appreciate that also and I have stayed in some dives also



and this is where I was starting from. Yes I was pointing out that the expensive hotels take their toll but it's the initial rate which was the issue and which has only got worse since the pound took 10% out of the after tax earnings.



I didn't at the time but I'll need to now! My point is, I took the job and yes I made a bad decision regarding the rate based on the bollocks the Swiss guy at the UK agancy told me. 1000 chf for a furnished flat in Geneva etc. With that in mind, 9000 chf per month - 1000 for the flat would not have been a problem. The problem is the agent basically lied and he had a reputation with all of the contractors he placed there. All said not to trust him and all said that the rate was too low - but I decided I ballsed up and I'd stick it out to the end. After a month the client indicated they wanted to extend my contract and I was happy to do so provided I got an increase. The agent straight away agreed a 79 chf increase per day but also increased the rate of my colleague maintaining the differential - even though we do the same role. I had a few other home based issues to deal with which made it look like I probably wouldn't see the extension but that looks like it's been resolved, so I decided that I would do the extension if my rate was on a par with my colleague - provided I don't get any better offers! This is where we are at now. The agent is bringing up things like the client is shocked and concerned that I'm raising this at such a late stage and I suppose to them it doesn't look very professional. My argument is simple - the rate is too low to

1 - cover my costs

2 - justify living and working away

The client has just lost one contractor who stated that the rate was the issue.

It takes a special kind of person to cope with working away from home & from what I have read, you are not one of them.

To work away from home basically means leaving everything in your life behind and starting a new one for a certain period of time.

Some folk can cope with this and some cant.

May be worth asking yourself why you are doing it and if you cant come up with a justifiable reason, do something else.

PZZ

[BoredBloke]

It takes a special kind of person to cope with working away from home & from what I have read, you are not one of them.

I have no problwm working away from home and have done for about 5 of the past 9 years - usually in London, but once for 4 months in LA and once in North Carolina for 6 months.

To work away from home basically means leaving everything in your life behind and starting a new one for a certain period of time. .

No it doesn't, but my point is that the rate does not cover my needs - it doesn't cover the cost of the tulip accomodation in Geneva/France and it doesn't cover the costs I can't leave behind in the UK. Had the agent told me the full costs associated with Geneva than I might have been in a better position. But to be told you can rent somewhere for 1000 chf a month when the true cost is more like 3 times that, also factor in the fact that nobody will consider you unless you have at least a 6 month contract. I can take the crap places to live, the crap food and the travel if the moeny in the bank justifies it. This doesn't

Some folk can cope with this and some cant.

My point isn't the fact I'm living in student accomodation my point is that the money left over isn't worth me living like this. If my rate was increased I would probably live in the same places but it would be nice to know that I was getting moeny in the bank as compensation

May be worth asking yourself why you are doing it and if you cant come up with a justifiable reason, do something else.

I did this because of 2 reasons

1 - it looked like a good opportunity at the outset
2 - the pimp said I could rent somewhere cheaply (shock an agent lying) and the intention was to have a place where I wasn't travelling heavy each week. Where my friends and family could come for the odd weekend and where we could use it as a base for doing stuff in Europe.

[pzz76077]

I have no problwm working away from home and have done for about 5 of the past 9 years - usually in London, but once for 4 months in LA and once in North Carolina for 6 months.




No it doesn't, but my point is that the rate does not cover my needs - it doesn't cover the cost of the tulip accomodation in Geneva/France and it doesn't cover the costs I can't leave behind in the UK. Had the agent told me the full costs associated with Geneva than I might have been in a better position. But to be told you can rent somewhere for 1000 chf a month when the true cost is more like 3 times that, also factor in the fact that nobody will consider you unless you have at least a 6 month contract. I can take the crap places to live, the crap food and the travel if the moeny in the bank justifies it. This doesn't




My point isn't the fact I'm living in student accomodation my point is that the money left over isn't worth me living like this. If my rate was increased I would probably live in the same places but it would be nice to know that I was getting moeny in the bank as compensation



I did this because of 2 reasons

1 - it looked like a good opportunity at the outset
2 - the pimp said I could rent somewhere cheaply (shock an agent lying) and the intention was to have a place where I wasn't travelling heavy each week. Where my friends and family could come for the odd weekend and where we could use it as a base for doing stuff in Europe.

Still sounds like you would be happier elsewhere to me.
Do your homework before you sign next time.

PZZ

[Ivor Bigun]

Ultimately I have been losing money on this role but figured I'm losing money more slowly than if I didn't have a job, so I have stuck with it.

I don't think my current costs at home are excessive. What I'm saying is the amount left over does not cut it.

Tony, you're a family man yes?
You are always going to have more costs than Mr. "free and single" if you work abroad.
For all these roles, you have to compete with those that have no loans, no mortgage and don't need to fly back to the UK every week.
They are always going to be "better off" than you even if they charged less.

All I'm trying to say is that the figures you've given for your "take home cut", only make "family sense" to me if you have no loans and a small mortgage.

[BoredBloke]

Tony, you're a family man yes?
You are always going to have more costs than Mr. "free and single" if you work abroad.
For all these roles, you have to compete with those that have no loans, no mortgage and don't need to fly back to the UK every week.
They are always going to be "better off" than you even if they charged less.

All I'm trying to say is that the figures you've given for your "take home cut", only make "family sense" to me if you have no loans and a small mortgage.

I agree - but my point is this (again). The agent is a Swiss national. He would have known that 656 chf a day out here is not the going rate and not enough to work away on based on the cost of living out here. I was quite prepared to slum it as I'd assumed

1 - I'd be getting a flat for 1000 chf a month which would have been 609 gbp at the start of the contract - going off what he had said. Had I been able to rent somewhere my other associated costs such as food would have been significantly lower also
2 - my rate would have given me about 5k a month in income after tax.

However since I started I have had to contend with a drop of 10% due to the exchange rate and had to increase my accomodation costs by about 1000 gbp a month.

This swing has removed any profit which is what made it doable for me. I realise that I have higher costs than a single bloke but even I could have made this work had I been able to obtain a flat at the price he quoted or if I had been submitted at a proper rate.

This same agent had a hell of a reputation in the office by the time I arraived. There were about 4 other brits here who he placed. It is no coincidence that all have left and in all cases, not one had a good word to say for him. Every contractor had been spun the same line on accomodation etc.

I've also been told by him what his margin is. This month I should see 4500 after tax(6800 before tax). The agency will make almost 2700 for the same period.

[expat]

Still sounds like you would be happier elsewhere to me.
Do your homework before you sign next time.

PZZ

I don't see the justification for this simple and unhelpful putdown of Tony.

I see no evidence that he is not cut out for working away. I could have said anything that he did, and I've been working away since before most of you were born, hence my name. I happen to think that he didn't put his point with stunning clarity at first, but that's no sin on here, and anyway he didn't start off a thread to complain about costs in Geneva, he replied to someone else. And I think that he was over-optimistic about his income, misled by an agent. That happens to many of us, at least he has now learned the kind of learning that sticks.

[Ivor Bigun]

I agree - but my point is this (again). The agent is a Swiss national. He would have known that 656 chf a day out here is not the going rate and not enough to work away on based on the cost of living out here. I was quite prepared to slum it as I'd assumed

I've also been told by him what his margin is. This month I should see 4500 after tax(6800 before tax). The agency will make almost 2700 for the same period.

The options I highlighted are those that are in your control. The ones you want to change are not.

Unfortunately, you're letting yourself get annoyed by your belief that the agent has f**ked you over and and that he continues to do so.
Yes we are all a bit vulnerable about our futures but your letting it get to you.

Yes he is a "businessman" - totally agree - but if you continue to work yourself up about it, it does YOU no good because in reality, there is little you can do to make you feel better about it. In the end, he is a better "businessman" than you ON THIS DEAL.
Before you get angry about it, DEAL WITH IT AS A ONE OFF THING

Consider that the agent hasn't f*cked you over. Consider that it was YOU who was too foolish to undergo due diligance. In the end you trusted what this guy said to you.
All that anger inside you is really because you are annoyed with yourself for wanting to think that he was a "buddy". HE NEVER WAS and had your card marked before you sent your CV. Nothing personal - just BUSINESS.

Look at this from the agents perspective.
One of the the most important things about selling (for rec cons) is knowing when to walk away from a deal so that they can start afresh with another contractor. They are in it for the money only - they don't give a **** about you or me - they have and they never will!

After all, you already know that 4 people left and have been replaced. One of them was presumably replaced by you - and at a lower rate. He did well there and the other contractor probably felt badly burned.

Its an unfair world.

[BoredBloke]

The options I highlighted are those that are in your control. The ones you want to change are not.

Unfortunately, you're letting yourself get annoyed by your belief that the agent has f**ked you over and and that he continues to do so.
Yes we are all a bit vulnerable about our futures but your letting it get to you.

I'm not - I was asking for suggestions as to a way forward. I realised pretty much as soon as I got here that financially this contract wasn't all it was cracked up to be, but rather than walk I decided I'd see it through as in my mind it was the professional thing to do. I obviously do not appreciate being lied to but as I have said often in this thread I see that as being a lesson learnt. The same sell was given to the other contractors he placed here and they fell for it also.

Yes he is a "businessman" - totally agree - but if you continue to work yourself up about it, it does YOU no good because in reality, there is little you can do to make you feel better about it. In the end, he is a better "businessman" than you ON THIS DEAL.
Before you get angry about it, DEAL WITH IT AS A ONE OFF THING.

Where in this have I said I want to change the things that have gone on in the past? I cannot change the terms and conditions stated in the original contract, but I can going forward. I have said often the first contract was an expensibve lesson learnt.

Consider that the agent hasn't fliped you over. Consider that it was YOU who was too foolish to undergo due diligance. In the end you trusted what this guy said to you.

Ok - I got a call, the agent asked what rate I was on and I told him. I asked straight what the cost of living was like and that is when he rattled off the stream of made up costs. I'd never been to Switzerland before and had no reason to expect the guy to mislead me so much in his responses.

But things are different now - I'm in possession of the full facts and know how expensive this place is.

All that anger inside you is really because you are annoyed with yourself for wanting to think that he was a "buddy". HE NEVER WAS and had your card marked before you sent your CV. Nothing personal - just BUSINESS.

Not very good on the long term front though. The end client has had a high turnover based on his actions and it's interesting to note that while the client has struggled to replace one of my colleagues, this particular agency has not been asked to submitt CV's. I never saw him as a buddy as you say. I asked him a direct question regarding the probable costs I could expect since this guy is from the area. All I was expecting was that he could show a bit of honesty. If he wanted a long term deal that to give the full facts would have meant that I could have set my rate accordingly and we wouldn't be in the situation we are in now. His 27% margin has been maintained on all of his contractors so he would have earned more also - the probelm is he knew that I'd be undercutting the rest on my rate which is why he did what he did.

Look at this from the agents perspective.
One of the the most important things about selling (for rec cons) is knowing when to walk away from a deal so that they can start afresh with another contractor. They are in it for the money only - they don't give a flip about you or me - they have and they never will!

Had he been more honest he might still have had the other 4 contractor in this office giving him his 27%. The fact he misled them also meant that they left as soon as it became possible.

After all, you already know that 4 people left and have been replaced. One of them was presumably replaced by you - and at a lower rate. He did well there and the other contractor probably felt badly burned.

Its an unfair world.

Wrong - only 2 have been replaced and I did not replace anybody. The client had a specific need that I was recruited for. When the project is complete I will move on - or sooner.

As I said many times in this I was asking for suggestions as to a way forward.

I'm looking to get the notice period down to 2 weeks and my rate increased so that I can build in a buffer for the exchange rate and in so doing claw back some of the money lost due to the negative effect on the exchange rate over the past 3 months and to reach parity in terms of pay with my colleague.

I doubt they will meet this fully but I'm going to have the 2 weeks notice put in.

[The Lone Gunman]

Have you considered asking them to cover rental and travel costs?
Drop your rate by 800 per month (as he says that is the cost) and let them provide a furnished flat.
I met a guy on a flight a couple of weeks ago who in a moment of cheek asked for 4 flights a month and the client agreed. Apparently they regard that as small potatoes.