SasGuru was right all along. Apologies

[AtW]

Didn't SasGuru 'come out' and claim that diver was his sockie ?

Water proof sockie too...

[EternalOptimist]

He confused it with The Battle of Arnhem.

One would have thought that after extremely expensive paradrops of Luftwaffe in 1941 (Crete) such mass scale operations involving paratroopers won't be done - Axis certainly avoided it.

Check out the battle of Kanev 1943

[AtW]

Check out the battle of Kanev 1943

It does not count as it was not German paradrop but Soviet - during WW2 USSR suffered extremely heavy human casualties, on that background paradrop was just small scale operation.

After Crete Luftwaffe was not allowed to do operational scale para drops, only small scale tactical stuff.

Also it was a rather big mistake to paradrop near the place where elite panzer corps were resting and recouperating...

[sasguru]

It does not count as it was not German paradrop but Soviet - during WW2 USSR suffered extremely heavy human casualties, on that background paradrop was just small scale operation.

After Crete Luftwaffe was not allowed to do operational scale para drops, only small scale tactical stuff.

Also it was a rather big mistake to paradrop near the place where elite panzer corps were resting and recouperating...

Why are you bothering with this nonsense? you should be addressing the subject of this thread:

http://forums.contractoruk.com/gener...irst-shag.html

[EternalOptimist]

After Crete Luftwaffe was not allowed to do operational scale para drops, only small scale tactical stuff.

Also it was a rather big mistake to paradrop near the place where elite panzer corps were resting and recouperating...

With hindsight, maybe so, but the Allies had just given the wermacht the biggest kicking in history, the Germans ran so fast the Allies couldn't keep up with them. In those circumstances a bold move was justified. Dont forget, the operation very nearly succeeded, and would have done with just a little more luck.

[AtW]

With hindsight, maybe so, but the Allies had just given the wermacht the biggest kicking in history

You mean on D-Day, you call that the biggest kicking in history?

the Germans ran so fast the Allies couldn't keep up with them.

Was it faster than at Dunkirk?

Considering weak strength of units stationed in Europe, and paralisis of their command (decisive axis commander on D-Day would have rolled the beaches with tanks very quickly) Axis did pretty well actually.

With all due respect to Britain's contribution in WW2 (and I think it was critical - Britain could have made deal with Hitler in 1940), the only land base fights that worth talking about were prior to 1940: the odds there were far more even than during D-Day when Axis were extremely weak (because all best units went to the Eastern Front) and undecisive.

Allies were extremely lucky that all the best (in quantity too) Axis armour was in the Eastern Front, also general paralisis of command structure there helped too.

[EternalOptimist]

You mean on D-Day, you call that the biggest kicking in history?





Was it faster than at Dunkirk?

Considering weak strength of units stationed in Europe, and paralisis of their command (decisive axis commander on D-Day would have rolled the beaches with tanks very quickly) Axis did pretty well actually.

With all due respect to Britain's contribution in WW2 (and I think it was critical - Britain could have made deal with Hitler in 1940), the only land base fights that worth talking about were prior to 1940: the odds there were far more even than during D-Day when Axis were extremely weak (because all best units went to the Eastern Front) and undecisive.

Allies were extremely lucky that all the best (in quantity too) Axis armour was in the Eastern Front, also general paralisis of command structure there helped too.

21 panzer was in action on dday, 12 ss the next day, panzer lehr soon after,
hardly second line troops.

The kicking I described is not dday, that was small scale, I am talking about the battle of Normandy. The germans were losing a battalion a day,every day, something they never experienced in the East. It was the speed of the attrition that shocked them, plus getting pocketed at Falais.

No one is underrating the contribution of the Soviet Union

But Market Garden very nearly did work

[AtW]

21 panzer was in action on dday, 12 ss the next day, panzer lehr soon after,
hardly second line troops.

That's only 3 divisions and they should have been active much earlier - they were located too far from actual action and it took time to reach positions. They should have been located 1 hour max from landing points.

The kicking I described is not dday, that was small scale, I am talking about the battle of Normandy. The germans were losing a battalion a day,every day, something they never experienced in the East. It was the speed of the attrition that shocked them, plus getting pocketed at Falais.

The infantry troops that Axis had were 2nd and 3rd rate, the losses you describe (I take them as true without checking) can be true for single battle but you are missing the point on overall German infantry (and equipment) losses on eastern front: it would be something like 15% to 85%.

At Stalingrad Germans lost the best assault army - 6th, thats around 300k soldier and it happened over fairly short period of time: if battallion strength is assumed at 1k (and it was lower for axis - 500-700 I think), then loss of 300k exceeds your estimate.

My opinion is that Britain and USA played critical role in winning the war, however that was not D-Day operation - by summer 1944 it was clear that Axis were losing very bad, the only reason Stalin insisted on D-Day was because he wanted Allies to lose some of their military capability.

[AtW]

21 panzer was in action on dday, 12 ss the next day, panzer lehr soon after

Here is a complete list of German pazner divisions (I put in bold those that were engaged - you can see that list scale of things):

* 1st Panzer Division
* 2nd Panzer Division
* 3rd Panzer Division
* 4th Panzer Division
* 5th Panzer Division
* 6th Panzer Division (previously 1st Light Division)
* 7th Panzer Division (previously 2nd Light Division)
* 8th Panzer Division (previously 3rd Light Division)
* 9th Panzer Division (previously 4th Light Division)
* 10th Panzer Division
* 11th Panzer Division
* 12th Panzer Division (previously 2nd Motorized Infantry Division)
* 13th Panzer Division (previously 13th Infantry Division, 13th Motorized Infantry Division; later Panzer Division Feldherrnhalle 2)
* 14th Panzer Division (previously 4th Infantry Division)
* 15th Panzer Division (previously 33rd Infantry Division; later 15th Panzergrenadier Division)
* 16th Panzer Division (previously 16th Infantry Division)
* 17th Panzer Division (previously 27th Infantry Division)
* 18th Panzer Division (later 18th Artillery Division)
* 19th Panzer Division (previously 19th Infantry Division)
* 20th Panzer Division
* 21st Panzer Division (previously 5th Light Division)
* 22nd Panzer Division
* 23rd Panzer Division
* 24th Panzer Division (previously 1st Cavalry Division)
* 25th Panzer Division
* 26th Panzer Division (formerly 23rd Infantry Division)
* 27th Panzer Division
* 116th Panzer Division Windhund (previously 16th Infantry Division, 16th Motorized Infantry Division, and 16th Panzergrenadier Division)
* 155th Reserve Panzer Division (previously Division Nr. 155, Division Nr. 155 (mot.), Panzer Division Nr. 155)
* Panzer Division Nr. 178 (previously Division Nr. 178)
* 179th Reserve Panzer Division (previously Division Nr. 179, Division Nr. 179 (mot.), and Panzer Division Nr. 179)
* 232nd Panzer Division (previously Panzer Division Tatra, Panzer Training Division Tatra)
* 233rd Reserve Panzer Division (previously Division Nr. 233 (mot.), Panzergrenadier Division Nr. 233, and Panzer Division Nr. 233; later Panzer Division Clausewitz)
* 273rd Reserve Panzer Division
* Panzer Division Clausewitz (previously Division Nr. 233 (mot.), Panzergrenadier Division Nr. 233, and Panzer Division Nr. 233, Reserve Panzer Division 233)
o Döberitz, Schlesien, and Holstein are approximately synonymous with Clausewitz.
* Panzer Division Feldherrnhalle 1 (previously 60th Infantry Division, 60th Motorized Infantry Division, and Panzergrenadier Division Feldherrnhalle)
* Panzer Division Feldherrnhalle 2 (previously 13th Infantry Division, 13th Motorized Infantry Division, and 13th Panzer Division)
* Panzer Division Jüterbog
* Panzer Division Kempf (part Heer, part Waffen-SS)
* Panzer Division Kurmark
* Panzer Lehr Division (sometimes identified as 130th Panzer Division)
* Panzer Division Müncheberg
* Panzer Division Tatra (later Panzer Training Division Tatra, 232nd Panzer Division)

-

Does not look like Waffen SS pazner divisions are in this list.

This does not show Heavy Tank Battalions which were actually causing a lot of damage thanks to their heavy tanks and very experienced tank commanders.

[sasguru]

Here is a complete list of German pazner divisions (I put in bold those that were engaged - you can see that list scale of things):

* 1st Panzer Division
* 2nd Panzer Division
* 3rd Panzer Division
* 4th Panzer Division
* 5th Panzer Division
* 6th Panzer Division (previously 1st Light Division)
* 7th Panzer Division (previously 2nd Light Division)
* 8th Panzer Division (previously 3rd Light Division)
* 9th Panzer Division (previously 4th Light Division)
* 10th Panzer Division
* 11th Panzer Division
* 12th Panzer Division (previously 2nd Motorized Infantry Division)
* 13th Panzer Division (previously 13th Infantry Division, 13th Motorized Infantry Division; later Panzer Division Feldherrnhalle 2)
* 14th Panzer Division (previously 4th Infantry Division)
* 15th Panzer Division (previously 33rd Infantry Division; later 15th Panzergrenadier Division)
* 16th Panzer Division (previously 16th Infantry Division)
* 17th Panzer Division (previously 27th Infantry Division)
* 18th Panzer Division (later 18th Artillery Division)
* 19th Panzer Division (previously 19th Infantry Division)
* 20th Panzer Division
* 21st Panzer Division (previously 5th Light Division)
* 22nd Panzer Division
* 23rd Panzer Division
* 24th Panzer Division (previously 1st Cavalry Division)
* 25th Panzer Division
* 26th Panzer Division (formerly 23rd Infantry Division)
* 27th Panzer Division
* 116th Panzer Division Windhund (previously 16th Infantry Division, 16th Motorized Infantry Division, and 16th Panzergrenadier Division)
* 155th Reserve Panzer Division (previously Division Nr. 155, Division Nr. 155 (mot.), Panzer Division Nr. 155)
* Panzer Division Nr. 178 (previously Division Nr. 178)
* 179th Reserve Panzer Division (previously Division Nr. 179, Division Nr. 179 (mot.), and Panzer Division Nr. 179)
* 232nd Panzer Division (previously Panzer Division Tatra, Panzer Training Division Tatra)
* 233rd Reserve Panzer Division (previously Division Nr. 233 (mot.), Panzergrenadier Division Nr. 233, and Panzer Division Nr. 233; later Panzer Division Clausewitz)
* 273rd Reserve Panzer Division
* Panzer Division Clausewitz (previously Division Nr. 233 (mot.), Panzergrenadier Division Nr. 233, and Panzer Division Nr. 233, Reserve Panzer Division 233)
o Döberitz, Schlesien, and Holstein are approximately synonymous with Clausewitz.
* Panzer Division Feldherrnhalle 1 (previously 60th Infantry Division, 60th Motorized Infantry Division, and Panzergrenadier Division Feldherrnhalle)
* Panzer Division Feldherrnhalle 2 (previously 13th Infantry Division, 13th Motorized Infantry Division, and 13th Panzer Division)
* Panzer Division Jüterbog
* Panzer Division Kempf (part Heer, part Waffen-SS)
* Panzer Division Kurmark
* Panzer Lehr Division (sometimes identified as 130th Panzer Division)
* Panzer Division Müncheberg
* Panzer Division Tatra (later Panzer Training Division Tatra, 232nd Panzer Division)

-

Does not look like Waffen SS pazner divisions are in this list.

This does not show Heavy Tank Battalions which were actually causing a lot of damage thanks to their heavy tanks and very experienced tank commanders.

Yes Yes, but when are you going to get laid. It's no good being Brum's oldest virgin you know.