Israel

[Paddy]

Apparently when Israelis withdrawn from Gaza and some other places then the first thing palestinians who got there did to nice farms, houses etc was to break it all down to pieces - odd really - one would imagine whoever had to leave those things behind would torch them themselves (my Russian side would do something like this), but they did not - it was palestinians who did it.

What would happen to a palestinian if he says openly HAMAS is wrong to rocket Israel etc? He'd be accused to be traitor or Israel spy and get killed thats what. Not so on the other side - yet another reason why I support Israel now - Palestinians have quite literally blown up their cause with their suicide bombings of civilians.

Your “Apparently” is really an urban myth. The new showed is graphical detail that the Israeli army was blowing up housed and demolishing farms as they evacuated the settlements.

Two days ago on the news it showed reports and press photographers being targeted by the Israeli army, two of them were shot even though they were not near any crowds or demonstrations. News reports also showed a farm being bulldozed and the Palestinian farmer being ejected to the other side of the newly build wall.

Do you think there will be less suicde bombling after this weeks events?

[AtW]

to be honest i thought it was a harmless childrens song, but i guess paranoid bigots can see hate everywhere

Let's thank Jesus that minestrone is Catholic paranoid bigot - at least he won't blow himself up to get us for expressing different point of view.

[AtW]

Your “Apparently” is really an urban myth. The new showed is graphical detail that the Israeli army was blowing up housed and demolishing farms as they evacuated the settlements.

Well, they build them, assuming you are right (which requires a lot of faith) I don't see it as a big problem - so long as they did not contaminate land/water etc.

Can you prove that Israelis blown up all the farms/land like that in territory that they have withdrawn from?

Do you think there will be less suicde bombling after this weeks events?

Why do you think suicide bombings more or less stopped, did HAMAS change it mind on usage of human bombs against civilians? I think the reason they could not do that was due to the protective wall that was build rather than anything else.

Sure, there will be more attacks - but palestinians will suffer more from that, their chosen path is completely wrong and will only lead to more suffering - they have only themselves to blame for that in my view.

If palestinians renounced violence and tried to build their own state within the land they control now to show they can bring positive contribution then I'd be on their side, but until then they will reap exactly what they sow.

[Liability]

If palestinians renounced violence and tried to build their own state within the land they control now to show they can bring positive contribution then I'd be on their side, but until then they will reap exactly what they sow.

thats like trying to build a water well with pipes and bricks but no water source to fill the well with.

They cannot build the economy as there entire land is surrounded and watched and restricted.

[AtW]

They cannot build the economy as there entire land is surrounded and watched and restricted.

They get weapons and explosives from their border with Egypt, what makes you think they can't get civilian stuff (apart from maybe tons of fertiliser) via that border?

What economy can they build there anyway? Tourism? Making microprocessors like the Israelis do (Intel owes them big for diggin them out of Pentium 4 deadend)?

They are not even trying to solve this problem - it seems as if all their efforts are based on destruction of Israel, I don't even know if they know what they will do with their lifes if that happened.

[NotAllThere]

It's been said a few times in this civilised and urbane discussion of a very controversial issue, that the Israelis took the land illegally.

Which land was that? The land that they took after seeing off a pre-emptive unprovoked attack from their enemies? Or the the land they were entitled to after partition? Or the land that they offered to the Palestinian people at the very start of the nation, but were turned down, because the regional powers didn't want to negotiate, they just wanted to destroy Israel?

And who owned it before the Israelis?

[AtW]

And who owned it before the Israelis?

Whoever was strong enough to conquer it and maintain control. There were plenty of illegal things done in 20th century, including land grabs.

Correct me if I am wrong but I've read some history pieces that said something along those lines - when arab states declared war on Israel and tried to wipe them out they told arabs who lived there to move out into temporary camps so that it would be easier for the arab states to wipe out the jews (no need to ask for ID and stuff like that - just kill everyone), it turned out that those camps were more permanent than envisioned.

The bottom line is this - the path of armed resistance is counterproductive to their goals of getting land back (or being able to live where they want). Peaceful co-existance is the only viable path that they have, but they don't want to take it: the deadlock is essentially due to this palestinian position - no sane person in place of Israel would allow tens of thousands of potential suicide bombers to get anywhere close to their cities.

[Liability]

They get weapons and explosives from their border with Egypt, what makes you think they can't get civilian stuff (apart from maybe tons of fertiliser) via that border?

What economy can they build there anyway? Tourism? Making microprocessors like the Israelis do (Intel owes them big for diggin them out of Pentium 4 deadend)?

They are not even trying to solve this problem - it seems as if all their efforts are based on destruction of Israel, I don't even know if they know what they will do with their lifes if that happened.

and who provides this weapons and who sells them to them?

Having a formal line or channel with "that" border would cause it to be closed down by Israel.

[AtW]

and who provides this weapons and who sells them to them?

Iran, Sirya - they get plenty of arms from Russia, but don't seem to supply modern ones to palestine: if HAMAS had modern anti-aircraft and anti-tank missiles it would change balance considerably - war in Lebanon actually has shown that, but for now these weapons are not being smuggled into Palestine, probably because of unoffial agreement or very serious consequences that they would suffer if they did that.

Having a formal line or channel with "that" border would cause it to be closed down by Israel.

Gaza strip has got border with Egypt - I believe it is controlled by Egypt checkpoints and Palestine itself, there is probably some kind of agreement there. What I know for sure is that if Palestinians wanted some civil peaceful goods (probably checked by Israel) then they would get them to setup economy, whatever they can possible do there. Problem for them is that I can't see them doing anything - their lifes resolve around destruction of Israel and they don't even appreciate the fact that if Israel had 1% of their hate level and lack of moral restrictions, then they'd wipe palestinians out completely long time ago.

Perhaps some peace breakthrough will come only after Iran has been dealt with and Sirya too - the latter probably won't need military attack so long as the former is dealt with conclusively.

[Shimano105]

So their terrorist activities are allowed because the land doesn't belong to Israel historically?

Whilst I sympathise to a degree, history is littered with such injustices - America, Australia? Compromises have to be sought out to move forward.

Israel moved out of Gaza (against most Israeli opinion) and are still getting rocket attacks. Some people choose violence over politics every time, even when they have an elected political representation.

They play with fire and ultimately get what they are asking for - not a good idea when you are the little guy.