Indian Programmers

[Liability]

Please don't forget, these people have killed systems and projects on our behalf, without thought for their own safety.

It's generated loads of work for me.

btw - I've worked with some very very good Indian developers. The problem is not with Indians, it's the whole outsourcing paradigm.

I dont think the issue ever was the fact they were Indian in the sense you say - more along the lines of the model is tulipe and doesnt work.

Im sure ive just repeated what youve said!. COD5 has fried my brains! Those bloody germans!

[Ardesco]

One thing about Indians is they do actually seem to have a work ethic, and are prepared to work long hard hours we would balk at.

Bollocks. There are a small minority that have a good work ethic and will work all the hours god sends (just like with any other ethnic group). I think you will find that the vast majority sit around all day trying to look busy but actually achieving very little. Bear in mind that the holy grail for most Indians is to get paid for doing nothing as that means they have made it.

My experience with Indian teams is that you get 40-50 people for the cost of 4-5 people over here. Out of those 40-50 you get 1 (maybe 2 if you're really lucky) who really know thier stuff. 3-4 who know one small area of the project in exact detail but have no idea of how anything else works or how it all bolts together. The rest are just a total waste of space and there to make up numbers. They are usually seen asking everybody else how to do thier job, surfing the web or "doing thier certifications" in groups of 40-50 to make sure they get as many question right as possible (invariable the tulip hot guy who knows his stuff is answering all the questions for everybody).

Then of course the tulip hot ones leave and get a job over here and you hope to god they find another tulip hot one to send across, if not the project is ****ed.

Simply put Indians are exactly the same as anybody else, just cheaper.

[expat]

I second what a few people have said: there are some fine Indian programmers around, both over here and over there.

The problem is the outsourcing on low price: that's not a way to get those fine programmers. The same would apply to similar operations here. As evidenced by one government IT project after another.

[minestrone]

I lost my last job when they decided to outsource, they have never filled my position.

Best phone interview went to the guy who starts shouting 'hello hello I still can't hear you' 10 minutes into 'company and role' talk you get.

Another guy could be heard discussing the questions with other folk during the call.

Know a guy who interviewed for BUPA and they were instructed to always change the questions for each one as it was known the candidate would tape the interview and hand it over to the next person in line. First guy was jumping on the grenade for the team.

[Stan.goodvibes]

I second what a few people have said: there are some fine Indian programmers around, both over here and over there.

The problem is the outsourcing on low price: that's not a way to get those fine programmers. The same would apply to similar operations here. As evidenced by one government IT project after another.

Yeah - we are on two different subjects here. Outsourcing to a non-first-world-country, trying to do it on a shoestring (i.e. 150, vs 10 mil) always fails. AND some of those Indian code shops are outsourcing the development to an even cheaper country, so all those Indian outsourcing code stories you are quoting - its even worse than that.

Frankly given the amount of liason required between the designers, developers, testers etc to deliver a quality software solution, any lizard-brained nutjob that thinks they are going just fire the specs over to India and get a quality solution back is clearly a victim of the Peter Principle. Sacking and a slow death is too good for them

On the subject of Indians - some are good, some are not so good. However when you get further up the contractor food chain you are being hired not just for coding skills but for interpersonal and communication skills and understanding how the business works. Such things are not developed easily without being in the culture for a while and the business for even longer.

[Francko]

Where I have seen the biggest cultural clash is in the management style.

It's totally appalling. It's based on slaverism and micromanagement. The control is so strict that everybody would never dare to have any initiative so you have to tell them exactly from the first step to the final step what to do and check daily the progresses. In meetings only bosses can talk, everybody else has to listen, no one dare to suggest anything.

We now have an indian manager (grown managerially in India, of course) who is doing exactly the same to european people. Needless to say that everybody is totally frustrated and productivity is very low. Yet that's the only way you have to deal with over there.

[Liability]

Where I have seen the biggest cultural clash is in the management style.

It's totally appalling. It's based on slaverism and micromanagement. The control is so strict that everybody would never dare to have any initiative so you have to tell them exactly from the first step to the final step what to do and check daily the progresses. In meetings only bosses can talk, everybody else has to listen, no one dare to suggest anything.

We now have an indian manager (grown managerially in India, of course) who is doing exactly the same to european people. Needless to say that everybody is totally frustrated and productivity is very low. Yet that's the only way you have to deal with over there.

Very well put mate.

Another thing is that india's education system is so fundamentally flawed in that the sylabus [sp] is dated and does not get changed year on year not does the information they are taught so whilst they have the highest number of degree educated people - it means very little.

I am asian myself and often get called a Coconut as I hold these views and people cant call me a racist but outsourcing is just so not a good idea for many reasons.

My most annoying bugbear is that they agree to everything, yet dont know if they can deliver it and then try and get more bodies to the project selling them for like £300 a day to ramp up numbers! Yet when you question them, its like they know everything - yet delivery time - well majority in my experience has been tulipe

[Francko]

My most annoying bugbear is that they agree to everything, yet dont know if they can deliver it and then try and get more bodies to the project selling them for like £300 a day to ramp up numbers! Yet when you question them, its like they know everything - yet delivery time - well majority in my experience has been tulipe

Their only "management" technique is to work people to death. Of course, you can't apply the same here. We fought centuries for our personal freedom and rights, we are not going to give them up for nothing (also because we understood with our experience that working too hard in the short-term will burn you out in the long term and make things even worse). But there they have hope that they can force people to work at crazy levels so they know they have some chances of making it.

[Liability]

Their only "management" technique is to work people to death. Of course, you can't apply the same here. We fought centuries for our personal freedom and rights, we are not going to give them up for nothing (also because we understood with our experience that working too hard in the short-term will burn you out in the long term and make things even worse). But there they have hope that they can force people to work at crazy levels so they know they have some chances of making it.

True - it is about impressing your bosses the same culture is in the UK bases of these offshore services providers - they all now have offices and all in the UK and its the same here. I was asked to come and head up a team last year on a Perm salary [which was actually good and broke 100k] but I said no. The "chat" was a three way call and to be honest they have very little clue on what they were talking about! What alot of the main top 4 are doing now is getting "UK" faces at the senior positions to do the talking and all and then the offshore bods to come over and take over - almost smells of Accidenture's model. So expect alot of this in the coming year where they pitch for work on COST only on a larger scale.

[KackAttack]

In all the time I've known the Indian Programmers, I never understood why they had to suffer sub-standard accommodation

The consultants I work with are paid a salary offshore, and expenses whilst onshore - presumably so they / consultancy can avoid paying uk tax as far as possible. They are actually paid quite well but, to be blunt are rather tight and do not believe in 'wasting' money on decent accomodation.

(Bit like when I work away and stay in a tulip-hole hotel - but I see this as my choice and do not moan about it)