The end of Thatcherism

[Bagpuss]

One thing for sure the idea of self clearing markets and laissez faire is dead. The Invinsible Hand has turned out to be a bit of a limp wrist.

[rootsnall]

But the general principle of liberalisation came from Thatcher and Reagan in the 80s.

Very much US led and driven and we've gone along with it. The 1% Greenspan interest rates to avoid an earlier recession at all costs inflated the bubble to uncontrollable levels.

[sasguru]

Whilst you may be right about the end of Thatcherism (certainly as we know it) the wealth that has been created would not have happened without her reforms. The question of course is will economies roll back to what they were in the dark ages of socialism? We will see. At the moment the net gain is still in her favour by a long way.

There has been no wealth created. The illusion of wealth came from easy credit.
Rising house prices are not "wealth" - as we are going to see, easy come, easy go.
True wealth creation would be one or more of improving productivity, creating new products that we can sell to the world (clearly not financial products ), having a very high skilled technical workforce compared to the countries, increasing exports etc.
None of these things have happened.
The only world class industries left now that the City is in the doldrums are arms/weapons and pharmaceuticals.
There is nothing in the UK like the mittelstand - the well run medium sized firms that exist and thrive in Germany.

[The Lone Gunman]

No my words and thoughts entirely.
We can argue about the who had what limits etc - it may well be that New Labour made it even more liberal as they were desperate to show they had left their old interfering instincts behind.
But the general principle of liberalisation came from Thatcher and Reagan in the 80s.

I swear somebody used that "great and good of finance" bit last week. Might have been you in another post.
It is the limits that define Thatcherism though isn't it? It is those same limits that defend her from blame in the current crisis. Liberalism in and of itself is no bad thing and I think she left a few restrictions in place to avoid what we are seeing now. Maybe not deliberately, maybe more by luck and she was by no means perfect, but she did seem to stop short of disastrous measures in most policies.

[DodgyAgent]

One thing for sure the idea of self clearing markets and laissez faire is dead. The Invinsible Hand has turned out to be a bit of a limp wrist.

Rubbish, the markets are sorting the wheat from the chaff, thus showing the wheels of capitalism to be working efficiently. The real danger is not from the markets but that the left will now use this crisis as an excuse to meddle and really screw things up.

[AlfredJPruffock]

There has been no wealth created. The illusion of wealth came from easy credit.
Rising house prices are not "wealth" - as we are going to see, easy come, easy go.
True wealth creation would be one or more of improving productivity, creating new products that we can sell to the world (clearly not financial products ), having a very high skilled technical workforce compared to the countries, increasing exports etc.
None of these things have happened.
The only world class industries left now that the City is in the doldrums are arms/weapons and pharmaceuticals.
There is nothing in the UK like the mittelstand - the well run medium sized firms that exist and thrive in Germany.

Excellent points SG well said.

Most people do not understand it is the Mittlestand (who often emply fewer thatn 20 people) which is the real backbone of the German economny - not coporations.

From the UK's perspective, yes Arms remains our biggest export - which I think is a rather sad statistic - especially as Saudi Arabia, that beacon of Freedom and Democracy (anybody remember Freedom and Democracy?) is one of our biggest arms customers.

The City created merely the Illusion of Wealth.

[sasguru]

Rubbish, the markets are sorting the wheat from the chaff, thus showing the wheels of capitalism to be working efficiently. The real danger is not from the markets but that the left will now use this crisis as an excuse to meddle and really screw things up.

To be fair to the Golden Clown, he does seem to be averse to really socialising the banks permanently. But there are a lot of unreconstructed labourites itching to do more and make it permanent.

[Bagpuss]

You talk about Thatcher like she was the creator of a political mantra. She was the follower of a mantra i.e. Monetarism and the ideas of Milton Friedman. Monetarism is a flawed, boom and bust philosophy, as has been repeatedly observed over the last 3 decades. It matters not who is in power, the fault lies with the system.

[DodgyAgent]

Excellent points SG well said.

Most people do not understand it is the Mittlestand (who often emply fewer thatn 20 people) which is the real backbone of the German economny - not coporations.

From the UK's perspective, yes Arms remains our biggest export - which I think is a rather sad statistic - especially as Saudi Arabia, that beacon of Freedom and Democracy (anybody remember Freedom and Democracy?) is one of our biggest arms customers.

The City created merely the Illusion of Wealth.

Who buys the "mittlestand" products? who raises the funds which:

a. To build the manufacturing plants and

b. To buy the goods in the first place?

and whilst we are at it

where does the money come from to pay you?

[Fred Bloggs]

The only world class industries left now that the City is in the doldrums are arms/weapons and pharmaceuticals.

And AZ as well as GSK are off shoring their manufacturing as fast as they can. Both Co's may well off shore their corporate identity too soon in order to reduce their tax bill. Ireland looks favourite for all the FTSE100 co's. Sadly, I can't blame them. I'd base myself in the IoM if I could do it.