Britain is very leftie liberal

[Bob Dalek]

There is no stable economic society anywhere, economies rise and fall according to how they are managed.

I'd say that they rise and fall, full stop. Nothing's unchanging, but the UK under a Tory government might just stay on an even keel a mite longer than under trashy, fake political inepts like Labour's twonks. They really have taken the golden goose and magically transformed it into a rabid dog - in just over 10 years, the first few of which were a piece of cake, following-on, as they did, from the previous Tory administration.

I wonder if there are any political giants left, these days?

[KathyWoolfe]

As far as I can see Britain is the only country abiding by EU rules.

Germany wants to control Europe like it tried to do during two world wars only this time it wants to do it by economics and not force of arms.

France only obeys the EU rules that it wants to obey as France only does what it is in its own interest

Italy doesn't know what it wants to do and is not a significant partner in Europe anyway.

Everyone else in the EU (apart from the UK) does what the big two tell them to because it's too much trouble not to and they can gain economically thereby.

Britain constantly argues with itself. People in the UK moan about being ruled by the EU from Brussels but won't do anything about it. I think we should either be totally in the EU and work to modify it to what would suit us - or leave the EU and be independent. I don't believe that becoming the 51st state of the USA would work, even if the US would accept us - because I don't think it would.

[Bob Dalek]

I think EU membership is sane, right, correct, etc. But no way should we be signing away sovereignty, in any way.

The EU was supposedly, back in the old days, a trading entity, designed to make trade easier; not some sort of by-the-back-door federal republic ruled by dire samples like Blair, Mandelson, whoever.

or that foul dog egg, Kinnock!!!

[BlasterBates]

No sovereignty is being signed away, or even requested that it is signed away. EU states can cease to become non-EU states at any moment. This is not an intention and never has been.

The argument about sovereignty is completely facile.

[VectraMan]

People in the UK moan about being ruled by the EU from Brussels but won't do anything about it. I think we should either be totally in the EU and work to modify it to what would suit us - or leave the EU and be independent.

WSS. People use the reality of the EU to reject the principle. The principle is a good one, but we should be fully committed to it and the Euro to make sure it's the EU we want. I don't like the idea that Britain is a second-class EU member.

[DodgyAgent]

As far as I can see Britain is the only country abiding by EU rules.

Germany wants to control Europe like it tried to do during two world wars only this time it wants to do it by economics and not force of arms.

France only obeys the EU rules that it wants to obey as France only does what it is in its own interest

Italy doesn't know what it wants to do and is not a significant partner in Europe anyway.

Everyone else in the EU (apart from the UK) does what the big two tell them to because it's too much trouble not to and they can gain economically thereby.

Britain constantly argues with itself. People in the UK moan about being ruled by the EU from Brussels but won't do anything about it. I think we should either be totally in the EU and work to modify it to what would suit us - or leave the EU and be independent. I don't believe that becoming the 51st state of the USA would work, even if the US would accept us - because I don't think it would.

What is it with IT people? they see everything as a binary equation of either 1 or 0. "Either we are in or we are out" what does that mean? It is mostly a veiled threat cited by Europhiles to pick up their railway set and take it away if they dont get their own way.

The Uk has got it right. It is Europe's second largest economy, it can control its own interest rates whilst at the same time enjoying free trade with the rest of Europe. The Uk is also the link between the USA and the rest of Europe, so it enjoys far greater influence sitting on the fence than it would if its currency were controlled by the ECB (sorry France and Germany).

The EU was created as a free trading Union, not a political union that governs all the members from a central parliament. Yes the EU has its own political agenda and so should it.

We are already living in a society that is controlled far too much from the centre and STILL some of you demand that more laws and controls are centralised even more than they already are.

The EU is there to see that there is fair trade and that rules are abided by. One day it may just grow up and put a halt to the institutional corruption and incompetence that goes on within. If it can get its accounts to be one day signed off then maybe then can it come to the people who it is supposed to serve and offer more.

[Bob Dalek]

No sovereignty is being signed away, or even requested that it is signed away. EU states can cease to become non-EU states at any moment. This is not an intention and never has been.

The argument about sovereignty is completely facile.

Thank you, Mr. Never-Really-Understood-The-Lisbon-Treaty-But-So-What, very informative.

The glorious day of "Oh f--k! Where'd our power go?" is just around the corner. And to THAT from "Hey, let's all trade nicely."!

[DodgyAgent]

No sovereignty is being signed away, or even requested that it is signed away. EU states can cease to become non-EU states at any moment. This is not an intention and never has been.

The argument about sovereignty is completely facile.

That is absolute twaddle. The EU wants for example to have a single representative army, diplomatic corp. The EU wants majority voting in some areas to be legally binding. These are all activities that remove the individual countries power to makes their own decisions. And yes an EU state can leave but that is huge price to pay if a state doesnt want its foreign policy dictated by a foreign power.

Your rationale is the typical bullying attitude of the European Union-- either do as we tell you or get out.

What has "intention" got to do with the EU???? Genghis Khan was well intentioned. He wanted to bring peace to the world, as did Hitler.

[KathyWoolfe]

WSS. People use the reality of the EU to reject the principle. The principle is a good one, but we should be fully committed to it and the Euro to make sure it's the EU we want. I don't like the idea that Britain is a second-class EU member.

I disagree, I can see the benefits of being a trading partner in the EU, but as long as Germany and France are calling the shots over there (and I believe that this is the case), then I want no part of a federal Europe.

Not that I think that a federal europe is a possibility as I believe that each nation is too self-centred to behave in co-operation with others on a political level.

[BlasterBates]

The EU wants for example to have a single representative army, diplomatic corp.

Did you read that in the Daily Mail. ?

..and the "legally binding" and you mentioned is no different to the "legally binding" in the original Common Market in 1957, with the exception that veto is not allowed. That is governments still have to translate into law.

But what EU sceptics try to do, is give the impression this means laws are passed by the EU, which is of course complete garbage.

It is good to debate the pro's con's but sceptics use it as an excuse to grandstand their facile viewpoints