Britain is very leftie liberal

[Peoplesoft bloke]

Why?

I agree that New Labour tries to exert far too much control on our day to day lives, but the problem there is New Labour, not that it's central. Seems to me if we had, for example, more local control resulting in different levels of income tax by county, it'd create all sorts of problems of inconsistency and "postcode lotteries", and restrictions of trade. And the EU isn't any different, just on a larger scale.

I don't really understand why people think being ruled by idiots you didn't vote for in Brussels is so much worse than being ruled by idiots you didn't vote for in London. Interesting how people are very quick to criticise New Labour (no argument there from me), but as soon as the subject of the EU comes up they start waving the flag and hold up our politicians in high esteem all because they happen to come from the same island as us.

And that's the key: the British are islanders, and we have an island mentality. I think that's a bit embaressing.

Careful - you're talking sense - never a good idea on here.

Next you'll be pointing out that in spite of most posters on here claiming New Lie (for whom I also have zero time) kill and eat babies on a regular basis, the Tories actually centralised most of local government because people kept electing Labour Councils (eg Red Ken on his first go). They also signed the two most significant treaties extending European Influence.

[VectraMan]

Ever heard of the concept of competition? It would be fantastic if most taxes were levied at local level. The lines of accountability would be short removing layers of bureaucracy. Local councils and service providers would be entirely at the service of the market and quite right so.

Remove bureaucracy? How complicated would it be if every county had its own tax rates and tax rules? Employ somebody from the next town over 10 miles away but in a different county, and you'd have all sorts of issues over which rate to pay, who collects the money, transferring money between authorities, etc. etc. It'd be a nightmare of paperwork for business and government alike.

It is an astonishing naivety to presume that an unelected government is going to look after its people.

Which unelected government are we talking about now? The EU has an elected parliment of MEPs (the fact hardly anybody bothers to vote for them is a different issue). You can cynically say the important decisions are taken by non-elected officials, but that's no different from our civil servants, House of Lords, judicary or (increasingly it seems) police.

[DodgyAgent]

Remove bureaucracy? How complicated would it be if every county had its own tax rates and tax rules? Employ somebody from the next town over 10 miles away but in a different county, and you'd have all sorts of issues over which rate to pay, who collects the money, transferring money between authorities, etc. etc. It'd be a nightmare of paperwork for business and government alike.



Which unelected government are we talking about now? The EU has an elected parliment of MEPs (the fact hardly anybody bothers to vote for them is a different issue). You can cynically say the important decisions are taken by non-elected officials, but that's no different from our civil servants, House of Lords, judicary or (increasingly it seems) police.

So why doesnt each county have one supermarket? Small countries such as Latvia, Switzerland etc manage to run their economies as well as the UK without benefitting from huge economies of scale that the UK "enjoys"

In fact I would go so far as to suggest that many more schools should be built in every area and give the consumers choice about where they send their children. It may not sound efficient but it would certainly sharpen up the quality of service.

Also my local station often has cubicles tha are shut at busy times and ticket machines that you cannot read without straining your neck. It would much more efficient if there were two rival sellers of tickets; apart from anything else there would be no warning signs to people about threatening staff.

[Rantor]

Remove bureaucracy? How complicated would it be if every county had its own tax rates and tax rules? Employ somebody from the next town over 10 miles away but in a different county, and you'd have all sorts of issues over which rate to pay, who collects the money, transferring money between authorities, etc. etc. It'd be a nightmare of paperwork for business and government alike.



Which unelected government are we talking about now? The EU has an elected parliment of MEPs (the fact hardly anybody bothers to vote for them is a different issue). You can cynically say the important decisions are taken by non-elected officials, but that's no different from our civil servants, House of Lords, judicary or (increasingly it seems) police.

The EU bureaucracy is fairly well run but the institution seems to me to be in a lot of trouble in the medium term. As a instrument of government it is entirely unfit for purpose and it is a waste of time worrying about the eussr superstate stuff - it simply ain't going to happen.

Everything that the happens within the eu is driven by the interests of individual member states and this where britain has always failed to play the eu game to our advantage. Its all very well negotiating opt outs, rebates etc. but this is not the same thing as simply get what you want out of it. We play by the rules wheras others do not (ECB regs flouted, compliance with basic eu law on a piecemeal basis.) Others play the game and take what suits them while playing at being good europeans. Even federalism was driven by blatant national(ist) self-interest though this is now being replaced by the 'europe of region' drivel spouted by the various ethnic nationalists.

The underlying financial structures of the EU are untenable and will doom eurpe to decline. Why is CAP funding not being allocated elsewhere to give incentives for R&D in altzernate energy sources, biotech or summit that might make some cash? No, much easier to pay of bunch of sheep-humpers from dumping their ex-girlfriends on place Schuman.

More importantly, the core role of a state is to defend its territorial integrity and the well-being of its citizens. That is not going to happen - the British and French woul not want (rightly) to cede control, the germans wont take part and everyone else postures. Meanwhile they all whinge about the american imperialists who they rely on 100% perecent on to stop vlad's mob marching in and taking what they want. No economic power in history has ever survived without being able to defend itself.

EU - bag o' w@nk.