PA Consulting

[Incognito]

I was talking about the costs, try and keep up.

Why would a hospital need any more than a means to read the card and a secure data link to the register. ANPR is very similar. These vans and police cars simply take a digital recording of your plate and then pull the information from the ANPR database which returns card details, driver details and any recorded 'hits' against that vehicle, i.e. expired road tax, police warrants, etc. Not exactly going to bring down the UK economy.

Why should I? - you haven't offered a single credible reason why your government friends should take over management of my identity and charge me to use it.

Thank you for clarifying your ignorant use of the term Luddite.

No you're right, why should you, it's only another piece of recordable information like your Date of Birth, Mothers maiden name, number of children, last address, etc that you quite freely give out.

How would they take over management of your identity? You are living in an episode of spooks aren't you?

[Peoplesoft bloke]

I don't understand what you're trying to imply here? The card reader and data link would be to confirm the data on your card against the NIR backend. You wouldn't be writing anything to the database from a hospital.

Now I know you haven't even read the Act yourself. The Act specifically provides for the database to contain a record of when verification events occurred - in other words, the hospital reader tells the database that Joe Bloggs had his identity verified at a given place and time. This data will provide a goldmine for jobsworths asking us to account for why we did particular things in a particular order, but will more worryingly be targeted by criminals to find out where people they don't like are.

[DaveB]

From the IPS site (hint:try reading it)

I have read it. NI numbers and drivers licences are trivial to aquire. Neither require any form of official ID to obtain. The HMRC website even states :

Remember - a National Insurance number is not proof of identity.

There is more detailed information about National Insurance numbers on the HM Revenue & Customs website

[Incognito]

Now I know you haven't even read the Act yourself. The Act specifically provides for the database to contain a record of when verification events occurred - in other words, the hospital reader tells the database that Joe Bloggs had his identity verified at a given place and time. This data will provide a goldmine for jobsworths asking us to account for why we did particular things in a particular order, but will more worryingly be targeted by criminals to find out where people they don't like are.

No, the database will insert a timestamp against verification. The reader will not be sending an insert.

I've already mentioned that I believe you will need DV to access the NIR, but again this isn't infallible, you have had examples of police officers being corrupted to check the PNC, however DV is more indepth at character checks than what apolice officer undergoes.

[Peoplesoft bloke]

No you're right, why should you, it's only another piece of recordable information like your Date of Birth, Mothers maiden name, number of children, last address, etc that you quite freely give out.

1)I don't "freely give out" that information - why would you assume I do.
2)If you really can't understand the difference between DOB and fingerprint data, you are even more dense than you appear.

How would they take over management of your identity? ?

The ID cards scheme and register - if you deny me access to any government based services (up to and including a passport) unless I hand over my prints, you are managing my identity. You are telling me that no matter what I may say, you know what my only real and acceptable identity is. That is a fundamental shift in the balance of power and responsibilities and it's a shame you can't grasp that.

[Incognito]

I have read it. NI numbers and drivers licences are trivial to aquire. Neither require any form of official ID to obtain. The HMRC website even states :

I'm afraid I don't know much more about the background checks then as I am not familiar with the checks that are done at the moment for passports etc. However to go back to my original point about what we were discussing, these won't be forged documents, these will be documents that have been procured through official channels which means it's an issue of identity theft and not forgery and I refer you back to my original post:

Link

[Incognito]

1)I don't "freely give out" that information - why would you assume I do.
2)If you really can't understand the difference between DOB and fingerprint data, you are even more dense than you appear.

The ID cards scheme and register - if you deny me access to any government based services (up to and including a passport) unless I hand over my prints, you are managing my identity. You are telling me that no matter what I may say, you know what my only real and acceptable identity is. That is a fundamental shift in the balance of power and responsibilities and it's a shame you can't grasp that.

I'm sorry, I assume you have a drivers licence, passport, NI number, bank account, are registered to vote, have car insurance, have a tesco clubcard, etc, etc, etc. I must be mistaken you really must be insecure about someone finding out who you are.

I do understand the difference between DOB and a fingerprint, it's easy to give someone the wrong DOB and that leads me down to the best point you've said so far.

You are telling me that no matter what I may say, you know what my only real and acceptable identity is

That's why I support it. We'll agree to disagree, because this thread is taking up to much of my time.

[Peoplesoft bloke]

I've already mentioned that I believe you will need DV to access the NIR,

Unless this has changed, it is one of the many questions the government steadfastly refused to answer. When you consider the size of the database, it would mean DV for a heck of a lot of people = more big costs.

IIRC, (and you may know better since you claim to know so much) the officials who are already conducing passport interviews in the 60+ interrogation centres already set up for the ID scheme don't have DV clearance.

[DaveB]

I'm afraid I don't know much more about the background checks then as I am not familiar with the checks that are done at the moment for passports etc. However to go back to my original point about what we were discussing, these won't be forged documents, these will be documents that have been procured through official channels which means it's an issue of identity theft and not forgery and I refer you back to my original post:

Link

No, it's not an issue of identity theft. No-ones identity is being stolen. It is trivial to apply for NI numbers and Drivers Licenses using false details. If you dont like the words forged documents then call them fraudulent documents instead. The effect is the same. Neither one contains any more biometric data than the date of birth and photograph supplied by the applicant.

From whats said on the IPS site these will then allow you to get an ID card in the name used using biometric data supplied at the time of application for the ID card.

While I hate to quote the Daily Hail they do have a nice screamer about the state of the NI system at the moment.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...e-numbers.html

And thats just the ones they found out about becasue it was a high profile case involving a government sponsored body.

[Incognito]

Unless this has changed, it is one of the many questions the government steadfastly refused to answer. When you consider the size of the database, it would mean DV for a heck of a lot of people = more big costs.

IIRC, (and you may know better since you claim to know so much) the officials who are already conducing passport interviews in the 60+ interrogation centres already set up for the ID scheme don't have DV clearance.

I believe that people who have direct admin access to the PNC need DV, I also know that the IPS was looking for SC clearance for the architects of the ID scheme, however that is acceptable as there will be no access to the data.

I do know that the MoJ needed DV clearance for one of their projects that required admin access to their back end database.

I have only made an assumption and I believe if they don't require DV clearance for admin access to the register then that will be a mistake. See, I am quite happy to see flaws where there are flaws.

There is a difference between operators and administrators and what clearance they will require.