moral equivalence

[Crazyhorse]

And why are you left wing when every institutes and ideals of the left consistently fails the very people that it stands for?

I rather think that you are consumed by guilt (I hope not envy)

Far from it, I have no guilt feelings. My beef is , as it has always been, with the loony left eg SWP, who see the fascists of AQ as some sort of freedom fighter. The scheming Galloways of this world and mealy mouthed labour MPs who don't have the moral fibre to back a leader that actually does something instead of talking.


By the way wtf do i have to log in every time i want to post, it ain't usually like this.

[DodgyAgent]

righti

Crazyhorse, you are a good old fashione right wing redneck just like me

[Crazyhorse]

definition of a liberal: a man too broadminded to take his own side in a fight.

Robert Frost

[Not So Wise]

Therefore, correct me if I am wrong, the US and UK troops who invaded Iraq and "accidentally" killed children during the course of their invasion are equally guilty as terrorist suicide bombers who have been killing Iraqi civilians (including children) on a day to day basis.

Lets look at the motives while these women and child have died for at the hands US/UK troops, Politics and money (if you beleive anything else is the reason that they were sent there then you are to big a fool for you to even start to understand the rest so stop reading)

These any better motives to die that religious beliefs? Not in my books

Sure the troops themselves are not there for those reasons, but at end of the day they are little more than "tools", is a gun to blame for killing someone? No the person with their hand on the trigger is, and who is that? the politicians and those who let them get away with it.

We allow others to be racist but not our own race.

Bitching at others for being racist/bigoted/sexist or whatever while being so ourselfs is hipocritical. And never delude yourself, our society is racist/bigoted/sexist to the core, it is basic part of human nature, them and us.

We change our language (no more chairmen, just "chairs")

Yes PC can go to far, for us at todays standards, but what are todays standards to judge by?
If the term "Politiclly correct" had existed when "******"(bloody censor..negative term for black person rhymes with bigger) was in common use and accepted those who objected to it would be bitched at by others others for being "politically correct"

Current language reenforces all ingrained negatives (racist/bigoted/sexist), take even one of the most basic, how often do we hear "White,Male" or "Black,Female", surely the phsical differences between male and female would make the definition more important than simple skin pigmentation? But it does not, because for us in society Color is more of a factor than gender, So it's always white male, black female.

We remove words like "terror" from our language

Never heard this one before.
Though will say, these suicide bombings don't have me "terrorfied" and i think those who going around changing their lives or trying to restriict the freedoms of others in response to these bombings are giving the bombers exactly what they want. More fool them.

We play down our history.

If more attention was paid to history i think this world would be a better place, because there is serious lessons there to be learned.

Problem is everyone seems to view it as a compatition, either to show how great they were, or how hard done by they were by others or something to hide/downplay when they did wrong.

Like you mention above Hitler and the jews, yep was bad. But as an interesting program showed on TV the other day world has totally forgotten about the 10 million killed in the just 30 years before by the Belgians in name of profit.
The world seems to have a selective memory

We pour scorn on the richest country in the world

I have an extreamly low opinion of the USA, but never because it is rich. But because it is one of the most screwed up countrys in the world.

If the liberals didnt spend their lives undoing alll the things that makde the UK "Great" (and no spod I have not just returned from the pub) then the mosques would have Union Jacks flying out of them (as the stars and stripes do in mosques in the USA)

Patriotism in the states is totally screwed up. First off it's not natural, it's institutionally ingrained from the first years of schooling with the pledge of allegiance (always reminds me of commusnist countrys clips where they show children in uniforms praiseing Lenin or Mao) and then is reenforced time and time via the media (Just been watching Independance day for example). History in US schools seems to go pretty much like, Prehistoric times then discovery of america, independance from the Briitish and onwards. It's as if the rest of the world did not exist and never existed. Helll the popular media is not even above rewriteing history when it suits them, like that movie recently about the german code machine that was captures, Britsh did it but thats no good enough for the americans so they made it look like they did instead. So what you say? Realise this is the closest most americans will get to history, ask most them now than they will say it was their people who did it fact.

Something that really summed up the USA and it's "average person" for me happened a long, was living in Spain and the World Expo was on Seville (same year as Barcalona Olimpics), for those who do not know this is something that is held about every 4 years, all countrys around the world and put on huge massive exposition centers to show their country's and cultures for 6 months. Because the Olimpics were on in same country that year it was best turn out in decades. Really a once in life time experience never to be repeated.

I lived about 2 hours down the road and knew an american lady, wealthy, susposedly well educated, lived last 10 years outside of the USA and told her she should go see it to get the tinyest taste of countrys from all around the world
Her reply? "Nahh don't need to, been to Disney worlds it's a small world (think that was what it was called..cannot remember now) So seen it all before"

Since then i have zero respect for any american until they prove they are worth of it.

And back to "Patriotism", blindly supporting your country when you don't agree with or support what they are doing...cannot really think of a word to describe it but idiot, hipocrite, morally bankrupt are some terms that would partially fit.

[DodgyAgent]

So

so answerthe question not so wise. Is the Nazi externination of the jews on a par with the bombing of dresden/the invaion of Iraq, the suicide bombers attack on civilians in Israel, london and the extermination of muslims by the serbs?

[Not So Wise]

so answerthe question not so wise. Is the Nazi externination of the jews on a par with the bombing of dresden/the invaion of Iraq, the suicide bombers attack on civilians in Israel, london and the extermination of muslims by the serbs?

Bombing of Dresden = extermination of Jew's? No
Why?
Were the jews at war with Hitler? No, he was the agressor

Did england start that war? No, once again Hitler was the agressor It just did what was nessary to win once it was started

Invasion of Iraq: Is the west the agressor? Yes

The suicide bombers attack on civilians in Israel: Which were in response to what? The invasion and occupation of Arab lands

London: Response to support of Israels occuaption and invasion of Iraq

Extermination of muslims by the serbs? Won't comment on that one as don't know enough of the history related to it.

What's my point? If you "started it" don't complain when otherside fight dirty and won't play by your rules...because at end of the day thats all they are ..."your rules" not theirs. And the west most definatly "started it"(or should say restarted it) in modern times where the middle east in concerned.

[threaded]

DA: I think there is a big difference between accidentally killing non-combatants and deliberately targeting civilians.

[sappatz]

israel

jews have committed terrorism acts in the past like the Irgun/stern (bombs) against the British occupation forces.
at the time they were called freedom fighters
terrorism is just another form of asymetric warfare.

[SupremeSpod]

Having spent some time in Israel recently I have not changed my views, "most" Israelis are a set of bastards and treat the Palestinian population like tulipe. They don't look too kindly on gentiles either!

[xoggoth]

I never manage to dislike anyone for very long DA, not even you, especially when, as you say, we are not that different in our viewpoints. It's just that everytime you post you renew my strictly temporary dislike.

And there you go again. You never respond to what people have actually written, only to what you think their motivations are. Everyone who does not share your views entirely has to be a leftie, or guilt ridden or a moral coward.

I cannot bear to agree with you? But apart from about Israel, I just did. Am I not entitled to my own views on that issue? Obviously not. I believe a killing is a killing regardless of intent? What utter rubbish! How did you reach that bizarre conclusion about my opinions?

For the record (although I do not know why I bother, as my true motivation in your eyes will remain whatever you think it is) my equating of suicide bombings and Dreseden is because I see the Palestinians as having a just cause, just as we had in WW1. Although I have very little patience with the way they have played the martyr card since, it is undisputably true that their land was taken from them in 1947. Even more was taken in 1967. While I think Israel was justified in defending itself then, I see no justification for continuing to occupy it for another forty years or to permanently annexe large parts. While I also see it as legitimate defence against suicide bombers to build the wall, I see no justification for building it well into Palestinian land, rather than on the internationally accepted borders. If you look at many other aspects of Isreali law they are totally unjust, for example, did you know that if a Palestinian has not actually lived on his land in Isreal for a year it can be appropriated without compensation? It seems to me that Israel, by reason of the powerful Jewish lobbies in the West, gets away with actions that would be generally condemned if perpetrated by other countries.

Tomorrow, once again, I will probably be thinking "That DA is really a very sound bloke apart from his abrasive debating style" Today, once again, I think you are a complete arse.